256: Men! Fight For Me, with Alan Smyth


Dr. Sandra Morgan and Alan Smyth, Executive Director of Saving Innocence, discuss his newly released book, Men! Fight for Me: The Role of Authentic Masculinity. Together, they go in detail into the four pillars of authentic masculinity and the significance of men’s role in the fight against human trafficking.

Alan Smyth

With over 25 years of nonprofit management and experience, Alan Smyth joins the team to cultivate strategic partnership on behalf of Saving Innocence reporting directly to CEO and Founder Kim Biddle. Most recently, he served for 14 years as the Regional Director for Young Life in the Greater Los Angeles Region and before that he was an Area Director for Young Life in San Francisco Bay for 11 years. During his tenure, Alan was responsible to fundraise for and oversee an overall annual operating budget of 4 million dollars as he led a charge to expand work into South LA. His responsibilities included recruiting, hiring, training & supervising staff as well as volunteers. Additionally, Alan executed hundreds fundraising events, strategic planning activities and developed marketing strategies that proved successful for Young Life in Los Angeles. Alan got his Bachelor of Communication Studies from San Jose State University.

Key Points

  • Men with authentic masculinity can play a significant role in fighting human trafficking.
  • Building healthy masculinity begins at a young age.
  • Men are part of the problem, and therefore must be part of the solution.
  • There are four pillars of genuine masculinity:
    • Accepts responsibility;
    • Leads courageously;
    • A life of service;
    • Who he is is more important than what he does.

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Dave [00:00:00] You’re listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. This is episode number 256, Men! Fight For Me, with Alan Smyth.

Production Credits [00:00:09] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave [00:00:30] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie [00:00:35] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave [00:00:38] And this is where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Sandie, today, another guest with us who has just doing some incredible work on supporting all of our efforts to end human trafficking. I’m so glad to welcome Alan Smyth to our show today. He serves as the Executive Director for Saving Innocence, an anti-human trafficking community-based organization focused on the recovery and restoration of child victims of sex trafficking. Alan is the co-author with Jessica Midciff of Men! Fight for Me: The Role of Authentic Masculinity. Alan, we’re so glad to have you with us today.

Alan [00:01:23] Oh, great. It’s an honor to be here. Thanks for having me.

Sandie [00:01:26] Alan, I actually was on my phone and saw the live reel that you did with Saving Innocence when your book was released. And I was so excited, I immediately downloaded it on Kindle and reached out to you. I was also wanted to mention to our listeners that the forward is written by Ambassador John Cotton Richmond, who served as ambassador until this last year. So, welcome from me. I want to start this conversation with what attracted me to this book. The concept of authentic masculinity in the fight against human trafficking. What brought that concept into your sphere of passion?

Alan [00:02:31] Yeah, that’s a great question and that really is the spirit of the book. It really it’s a book for everyone. There’s a lot of the book. Most of the book is not talking to men specifically; it’s human trafficking survivors telling their stories. But there is very much a specific challenge from me, man to man and my male voice challenging men to step into an authentic, as opposed to a counterfeit or cheapened or diminished version of masculinity, which is sold to us every single day, thousands of times on all of our media devices in the movies, TV, song lyrics. It’s a watered down, cheap and destructive, hurtful version of masculinity. And the reason why that was so important to bring into the human trafficking world is, as you mentioned in the intro, I’m the executive director for Saving Innocence, and we focus our efforts on child victims of sex trafficking. And it didn’t take very long when I came to Saving Innocence six years ago before I realized the reality that most, and the biggest part of this problem is caused by men. Most of the buyers are men. Most of the traffickers are men. Men are the biggest part of this problem. And then the next sort of revelation, if you will, when I started going to trainings and whether it was a county workshop or whether it was a Saturday afternoon at a church awareness event they were putting on in their community, there was almost no men there. And so that was really bothering me. The biggest part of the problem is caused by men, and there’s almost no men as part of the solution. And that was unacceptable to me. And then on top of that, and we’ll probably get into this, but the title of the book, Fight for Me, that part of it, was mentioned by Rachel Thomas. So I know your audience is aware of and I heard her in an event saying, “I needed someone to fight for me,” when she was telling her story because she could no longer fight for herself. So all of that sort of coalesced into my belly and kept me up at night. And I felt a responsibility to speak to man, man to man, about this issue because guys were the biggest part of the problem.

Sandie [00:04:34] I love that that man to man concept. And just a big shout out to Rachel Thomas. She’s amazing. And if you download this book, or go and buy it and hold it in your hand, that’s a novel concept, you’ll recognize a lot of the voices that Alan brings into the conversation because we’ve done interviews with them in the past here. But for me, this idea of authentic masculinity really captured my heart as well. And as a woman reading this book, I do have to admit, I was challenged in the beginning because it is written for men, sports metaphors and movie heroes and Liam Neeson and things like that. And I’m like, OK, can we get into the authentic masculinity? And then I’m checking myself and saying, wow, I’m not looking at this from a man’s perspective. And so I want to dive into my favorite chapter. The chapter I loved is chapter four. And you broke it down into four pillars that really are significant to this conversation by the way they frame authentic masculinity. So let’s start with those four pillars. Talk about pillar number one. He accepts responsibility.

Alan [00:06:12] Yeah. And this whole topic, and I tell more of the story in the book. When I was raising my son, I have a son and a daughter, and when my son was about five years old, a couple of buddies who had the same age boys, we got together and you know how do we raise a young man to be a good, strong, helpful, positive, productive man. And because of so many lies and counterfeit versions out there. And so we came up with our definition, here’s our working definition and we’re going to practice these and celebrate them when we see them and teach them and all of those kinds of things. And the first one, as you say, was he accepts responsibility. And so, yeah, that was one that if we just had, you know, in this case, our audience specifically as men, if we had more men stepping up, accepting responsibility for their actions, accepting responsibility for their children, you know, the missing father, the no show father is one of the scourges in our society. There’s so many fatherless children growing up, particularly in the inner cities. It’s an extra challenge there. We wanted our young boys and I wanted my son and myself and any man that will listen or read this book to step up to our responsibilities big and small, and that was one of the main pillars of what it meant to be a true, authentic, healthy male.

Sandie [00:07:25] And in the context of what I know, because I read what you’re talking about, you actually started a father son group and you called it–

Alan [00:07:36] We called it Braveheart. Here we go, back to the movie themes.

Sandie [00:07:39] I know. I just like oh, my gosh, I got to go watch that movie again. I think I only watched it once because it wasn’t soft and squishy, right?

Alan [00:07:48] No, the character William Wallace was a real character. I don’t know how much of the movie followed the real life, but he was standing against the odds, fighting against injustices, showing bravery, courage, all those kinds of things. And so as part of our father son group, there were different times when we would watch movies and then age appropriate movies and then discuss the topics with the boys. You know, we watched Remember the Titans years ago when it came out and that was very much a racial conversation between the football players. And so we had that conversation at the right time. But yeah, we chose Braveheart. That was the name of our group. We got a little coat of arms, a little seal. Every boy had it in their bedroom and had it not Braveheart the movie, but not just the name. And then we had the various components of that just to remind them every single day they’d look at it that you’re a Braveheart. Here’s what it means to be a Braveheart

Sandie [00:08:35] I love that. OK, so pillar two, he leads courageously.

Alan [00:08:42] Yeah, we are in a broken world, in fact, I was with John Richmond a couple of months ago in my backyard with some of our staff, and he went on talking about how violent and broken the world is and things that he had seen. And it’s going to take courage to confront these many, many issues that are right now hitting us in the face. And so pillar number two was we wanted our young boys and men in general to not only accept the responsibilities that they have and maybe some that aren’t even their responsibilities; take responsibility for the bigger picture, step into that. But it’s going to take courage to do that. And one of the distinctions that we talk about courage, courage is not the absence of fear. You can still be fearful and nervous and timid and still display courage because you fight through it and you confront the issues in spite of the odds against you. And today’s male, in my humble opinion, is not only lacking responsibility, but we need more and more courageous men to step up and end this human trafficking sort of environment. It’s going to take courage for us men to call out other men. And that’s part of the spirit of the book. There are so many brave, strong, articulate, incredible women in this fight. The missing gap is men and men really are going to struggle being called out on certain things like pornography and other things that we touch on in the book by women. They just are. And so it’s going to take a lot of man to man talk and that that’s going to take courage. And that’s what we’re hoping to inspire.

Sandie [00:10:14] I faced my oh, my goodness, I’m a woman reading a book. I’m intruding into a conversation between men as I was in that pillar. And the quote that you started was from the book A.M. Gray wrote, Warfighting. “Courage is not the absence of fear. Rather, it is the strength to overcome fear.” And I’ve had conversations, you know, I’m a grandma and so I do have opportunities sometimes to talk in really close conversations with young men. And this courage that you mentioned to speak up when something isn’t right in the conversation, we can’t just let it pass. Authentic masculinity is going to be courageous, is going to speak up when everybody else is laughing. It isn’t funny to demean or marginalize, minimize girls and women as just society’s expectation and or I’m just kidding. That doesn’t excuse it, courage. And that takes a lot of courage, especially in today’s society.

Alan [00:11:37] Yeah, I totally agree. And as young men are growing up and the crowd of men around them are viewing things on their phones or their computers that are demeaning women or pumping music into the locker room or the car when they drive and it’s again diminishing women and objectifying them, it’s going to take courage to step up against that and at the very least, remove yourself from that situation. And in the best case scenario, stand up against it and speak into it and show another way. And so that was a big one for our boys growing up and one that I hope that whole generations, plural of men will lean into a courageous battle against the injustices of this world and specifically the objectification and exploiting and trafficking of women and children. And there are boys that are being trafficked as well. But the you know, the biggest percentage that we see are young girls.

Sandie [00:12:30] Well, and your illustration of courage about Kyle Carpenter literally jumping into the middle of a fight onto a live grenade. And honestly, that illustration captured my imagination because I have done so much study on the power of social media with our young people and influencers. And it takes that same level of courage to jump on a social media grenade and stop it from the damage that it can wreak havoc.

Alan [00:13:14] Yeah, he was a young man in the Marine Corps who, like a scene out of the movies, who literally jumped on a grenade to save his buddy that he was in a foxhole with. And that’s incredible. And almost none of us are going to get called on to do that. But metaphorically speaking, you’re bringing up a good point. There are grenades, if you will, that we can be jumping on all the time. And the firestorm of social media and cancel culture and all those things, it’s going to take courage to jump on those grenades and then stand up for what’s right. And that’s what we’re hoping to inspire.

Sandie [00:13:44] I love that courage. So pillar three for the authentic man: he lives a life of service.

Alan [00:13:55] Yeah, he sure does. You know, so many, you see it men and women, but in this case, the audience is men are busy building the kingdom of self and busy chasing the next business deal and busy trying to build his his own environment that benefits him. And there’s nothing wrong with getting another deal and having a nice house and those kinds of things. It’s not about that. It’s more the mentality and the spirit. We’re going to serve those closest to us for sure. Your own wife and children, your own family, your own neighborhood. But to have that as a pillar of this, this is what marks an authentic, healthy, positive male that’s making a difference in the world in a positive way is that he serves as a service mentality. I’m here to serve. I’m not here to take, I’m here to give. And boy, could you imagine if we had generations of men accepting responsibilities, living courageously and now channeling that and a spirit of service? I’d like to live in a world that was marked by those things. And those are things I’m hoping to inspire in the men around me.

Sandie [00:14:59] I really resonated with service. Here at Vanguard University, our seal has truth, virtue and service. Service is built into a student’s life at Vanguard. And when I thought about this idea of service as a sign of masculinity, it really made me go to your chapter on things people could do. So I would recommend that if you get the book that you look at the service role in authentic masculinity, but then look at some ways that Alan has given us to actually put legs on that idea. Because many times, and I want to speak up for men, Alan, in the kind of idea that they are not showing up, we turn them away. We say, well, men can’t volunteer because blah, blah, blah. Men can’t do this. Well, if you are a nonprofit leader and you don’t have a place for men, create one. I know Harmony has talked about that in her experience of developing Treasures. She realized there was no role for men to be part of the solution. So I think the onus is on the multiple thousands of women that you mentioned to begin to create ways to better partner and collaborate with the authentic men in our communities.

Alan [00:16:39] Yeah, and I was recording something with Rebecca Bender not long ago. And we’re having this conversation basically. And she sort of looked in the camera and said, men, we want you, we want you in this. Please join us, there’s a spot for you. And I thought it was really powerful for a female survivor, such strength and influence as Rebecca Bender, to sort of roll out the red carpet and say, men, we want you involved, please get involved. And I hope that they will.

Sandie [00:17:04] And I am right behind Rebecca. I really want to make that clear. A lot of men are business men and there are ways to be involved at a corporate level, at a management level. You can be the procurement officer and make a difference in ending human trafficking. So, let’s go on to pillar number four. This one takes a little more time to unpack. It’s almost its own chapter. He understands that who he is is more important than what he does. What are we talking about there?

Alan [00:17:48] Yeah, that you’re right. That is a little deeper. But the idea is that we wanted our boys and we want men to understand that the sum total of the work that you bring to this world is not your accomplishments. It’s not the things that you have done. Who you are as a man, as a person, is more important than the things that you do. You know, oftentimes in sort of the male community, if you will, there’s a competitive nature. There’s I’m going to climb that corporate ladder. I got to make the next million dollars. And whoever has the most toys when they die wins, you know kind of thing. There’s that kind of thing that is a landmine for men. And we want men to know that, OK, we’re not saying there is wrong with the next deal. Like I said earlier, and I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with having a nice car, but what’s more important than that is who you are on the inside, your intrinsic value. Certainly, our faith perspective would inform that quite a bit. It’s who you are on the inside. And so let’s just say, for example, when we were leading our father son group, if one of the boys were to turn out to be an NFL star or a music star or something, and suddenly the applause of the world was coming their way and the riches of the world was coming their way, we wanted to start with when they were five years old and let them know, that’s great. That’s good. But here’s the thing. Who you are on the inside, your attitudes, your intentions, your follow through, your responsibilities, your courage, all those things are way more important than the stuff that you’re doing on the outside. Do the best job you can on the outside with the outside stuff, but it’s no higher than second place in terms of what’s most important. What’s most important is what’s on the inside of you and who you are, the kind of man and the kind of character that you’re developing. That’s kind of in a nutshell what we’re trying to get at.

Sandie [00:19:39] And you did this with your sons and it says in the book, “We drilled our boys over and over.” And that’s such a military, male kind of image. Again, I was like, oh, but this book I just want to emphasize, this is a book men will read. “We drilled our boys over and over. We even made plaques to hang on their walls.” Tell me about some of those plaques?

Alan [00:20:09] Yeah, and I mentioned it earlier. There were basically two of them that we celebrated. One was the role of the many four pillars. And so we just have all four of them listed out with our little logo on it. So that was there just to keep these four pillars in front of them at all times. And then the other one was this, I had a graphic designer friend, and he created basically this coat of arms, you know, like you’d see in the old days. And each of these things are represented. One of our kind of our theme Bible verse was represented in it. The three families were represented. And this really beautifully done coat of arms that had the word Braveheart on the top of it again was in the room. I have one hanging in my garage right now still to this day. And I would say that we weren’t necessarily thinking we drilled them in a military sense. None of us were actually had a military background. We’re probably thinking of it more of a in a sports context, you know, when you’re on the football team that you do the drills or basketball or whatever and you’re practicing repetitive. You practice the basics over and over again in sports, you know. NFL camps for those guys who were listening in, ladies too, I don’t want to separate us like that too much. But the NFL camps just opened yesterday, and I guarantee you they’re doing a lot of the fundamentals in the very beginning. And so we wanted to do the fundamentals and drill them and repeat them over and over again. And as they got a little bit older, that was our strategy.

Sandie [00:21:33] And that really in my frame, in my world of public health and nursing, that’s kind of a best practice as well. When we’re doing prevention, we want to develop a strategy for protecting whatever the prevention is, whether it’s like we don’t want you to get cavities. So now we teach you to brush your teeth and we don’t teach you to brush your teeth once, we teach you to brush your teeth over and over again, it becomes a habit that literally prevents your teeth from rotting and falling out of your head. Right? So, OK, so then you got into a chapter that was opening a conversation I’ve been part of. And I’d like to talk to you about the young man you met for coffee. Will you tell us about that conversation? That was courageous, by the way Alan, kudos to you. I’m going to send you a brave heart plaque to bring that conversation into a printed book so we can all talk about it.

Alan [00:22:42] Yeah, and the book is broken into three sections. In the middle section, I call it the Big Three, and there’s a specific chapter on the victims/survivors and kind of what’s happening there and what are they thinking about. And then there’s a chapter on the buyers, those that are out buying sex, what’s going on with them and who are they? And then the chapter you’re referring to, there’s one on the traffickers. And the approach of the book really is, follow me on this journey. I’m a dad with a daughter. I’m learning. I’m meeting people. Here are the conversations. There is law enforcement, there’s survivors, there’s other professionals. And on the chapter on the traffickers, I said to a friend who is in the book quite a bit, a few times anyway, and she’s embedded in the anti-human trafficking world. I said, is there any chance you know a current or former trafficker? I’d really love to sit down with someone if I’m going to do this topic justice, rather than my assumptions or everyone’s assumptions, I’d like to, if it’s possible, to meet with someone. And so she quickly gave me the name of a former trafficker. I sent him a note. He quickly responded. And within a few minutes we had a coffee date. And I just said, I want to know if you would be so willing, I’d love to know what your thoughts are, what they were when you were in the game, why did you do this? You know, all those kinds of things. And he walked me through kind of his life story. And it was challenging. He said several things that were really challenging to me. And I do detail them in the book. I even say challenge number one, challenge number two, and bring in some other voices. And the goal is to let the reader kind of synthesize the information from multiple perspectives and come up with kind of their own position, if they will.

Sandie [00:24:30] I appreciated those challenges because they point to social change issues we need to address, because the way that I interpreted that, a lot of the early formative years positioned the possibility of becoming a pimp as an attractive alternative for a life forward. Now, to make it really clear, that is no longer what this young man is doing, read the book. There is information about the nonprofit that he’s started to lead other young men in a different direction. But it is important, as we think about how we can impact vulnerable young men who might actually then become part of the problem. OK, so my other favorite chapter was the chapter with heroes, basically. It’s like we started off with with Liam Neeson, and now we’ve got a really striking contrast with men like Ben and Ryan. And one of the qualities that I identified and probably I would want to add as pillar number five in the next version of this book is humility. Humility. Will you talk to us about Ben and Ryan?

Alan [00:26:08] I sure will. And you’re referring to near the end of the book, the set up for the chapters of a friend of mine who is on the Secret Service agent forever, and he told me something profound one time. In the work of the Secret Service where they are disrupting counterfeit currency rings, we only see with our eyes guarding presidents and whatnot. But their dayjob, if you will, is disrupting currency rings. And he said, the way we train for that is that we spend 90 percent of our time studying the real thing, studying the authentic bill, he said. And that way we can spot the counterfeit a hundred miles away. Well, that’s pretty interesting. And so I wanted to close the book really right near the end. OK, let’s study the authentic male. Let’s look at some good, strong men who have made mistakes, of course. But in my life that I believe that they have done a great job at what we’re trying to promote. And so you’re calling out two of these men. Ben Chambers is a great friend of mine. I’ve known him for, I don’t know, 30 years. Twenty-five years and strong, courageous leader. Humility for sure. He lives a life of service. He embodies all those things. He’s been an inspiration to me for sure. And he gives his life away investing into college students right now. And Ryan Dalton, if you go to the website, FightforMe.net and the contributors page, there’s a healthy bio of Ryan Dalton because he contributes to the book in several places, just some really impressive anti-trafficking resumé from law enforcement to policy and those kinds of things. And again, I mean, you could tell me here what you took from it in terms of the humility piece, but he certainly is a humble, really smart, articulate man who communicates the issues around this really, really well from all different angles. And, you know, in kind of ex-military, ex-law enforcement, he has a spirit of service and humility that is unmatched. And so I wanted him in the book as well.

Sandie [00:28:12] Well, I have two quotes from these men. Ben said, “it is authentically masculine to be better at giving than at taking, yet, remaining humble enough to receive.” That’s Ben. And my quote from Ryan, oh, I’m going to put this on my wall in my office for the young men that come and talk to me. “In the heart of every man is duality. There is a quiet internal war between a hedonist and a saint.” And that brought it back to the beginning of the book with all the movie metaphors and the Matrix. Do we take the red pill or the blue pill, Braveheart, all of those things that this is a war. And I know that you join this war. And so I want to close out our conversation and ask you how you got involved with Saving Innocence and how this led you to write this book?

Alan [00:29:23] Yeah. Boy, what a journey! Was on the Young Life staff for twenty-five years. And before that I volunteered for 10 years. So I spent thirty-five years, basically my entire adult life, in the Young Life world. You could look that up and see more about what Young Life is, a faith-based organization that’s reaching out to kids, serving kids essentially. And after twenty-five years, it was time for a change. The chess pieces of my life were moving around. Things were changing in Young Life. And so I stepped away, and I had heard about Saving Innocence the year previously to that, in year twenty-four of staff. One of our Young Life staff women who was based in Hollywood at the time, said we have to do Young Life inside of Saving Innocence. I said, what’s that? She said, child victims of sex trafficking. I said, Oh, what? Thailand, what, when, where is it? No, right here. What? And so I was learning about this. I didn’t know much about it. So that stuck in the back of my mind and when I stepped away from Young Life, I didn’t know what I was going to do next, thinking and kind of discussing and praying and trying to figure out what’s my next step. And I couldn’t get rid of Saving Innocence. So I cold called them. I cold called Kim Biddle, the founder. I cold texted her I should say. And we met and she told me her story combined with what was happening with Saving Innocence. And I was leaning forward. Again, I’m thinking about this as a dad with a daughter. I have a son as well, as I mentioned. But most of the victims are little girls. And it was a mixture of my blood boiling and at the same time a sense of, wow, could this possibly be my next stop? And they weren’t looking. They weren’t hiring. There was no position posted. There was no money raised for the position or anything like that. We kept talking. I started watching videos and listening to things. Kim and I were talking and I said, I’m in. I don’t know what that means, at least I’ll be a little donor. But we kept talking about what it might look like. Come to find out, she’d been thinking about, you know, having someone like me with my background join us. They just hadn’t taken the step to formalize it. And then I’m not a big sort of mysterious kind of dream guy, but it was significant. I’ll say, my wife and I were away at a friend’s beach house in that process and I was awoken with a vivid dream. And in that dream, I saw myself going into this brothel that I was learning about and saw this young girl around 13 years old, in my mind’s eye, I said, come on, I’m getting you out of here. We went out the front door, got in my car, drove away and in my in my mirror rearview mirror of my dream, I’m looking for who’s chasing me, almost like another movie that you’re that you’re referencing. And then I woke up and I said, I don’t know what that means, except I feel like the next part of my life I’m supposed to give to the liberation and advocacy for children. And I wasn’t done with hurting kids and kids in need. I was done with the structure of Young Life. But I hadn’t, that part of me hadn’t left. And now I thought, hmm, I don’t know if they’ll have me, but I want to be part of this in some way, shape or form. And next thing you know–

Sandie [00:32:30] Alan, that is inspiring. And it really demonstrates all of those pillars, including the fifth one I added. I’m so grateful that we got to meet. We’re going to put a link to Saving Innocence in our show notes and we’ll have a way for you to find the book Men! Fight For Me: The Role of Authentic Masculinity In Ending Sexual Exploitation and Trafficking. I am so grateful that you took time to be with us today and I can’t wait to see the new conversations that start as men join this conversation in much bigger numbers. Thank you so much.

Alan [00:33:18] Thanks for having me. It’s been an honor.

Dave [00:33:20] Thank you so much for this conversation, Sandie. I’m thinking about the work of Laura Lederer and thinking about approaching conversations from a demand standpoint and what a wonderful piece of work that Alan has provided. And all of and with all the partners involved in this to continue the conversation, to help us all end human trafficking. Thank you so much for this. We’re inviting you to take the first step. Sandie mentioned we’re going to have notes and links linked up for you if you would like to dive in more. The very best place to go is to go over to endinghumantrafficking.org. That is where you will find all of our episodes, the notes. And when you’re online, we’re inviting you to download a copy of Sandie’s guide, The Five Things You Must Know: A Quick Start Guide to Ending Human Trafficking. It’ll teach you the five critical things that Sandie’s identified in her work that you should know before you join the fight against human trafficking. You can get access by going over to endinghumantrafficking.org. That’s also a great way to get the notes after each episode. We’ll send them to you in your inbox so you can easily find the links for Alan’s book and all the resources we mentioned in this episode, plus each episode and all of the resources. So just go over to endinghumantrafficking.org, download Sandie’s guide, and you’ll be off and running with us. A quick reminder that if you would like to join us for our very next Ensure Justice Conference, that’s coming up March 4th and 5th, 2022. I know it sounds like a bit away, but it’s actually just around the corner in the next six months here. I hope you’ll go over to ensurejustice.com. You can find information and early details for the conference. And of course, we will be back in two weeks for our next conversation. Sandie, always a pleasure. Thanks so much.

Sandie [00:35:06] Thank you, Dave. And thank you so much, Alan.

Alan [00:35:08] Loved being here. Thanks so much. Appreciate it very much.

Dave [00:35:12] Take care, everybody.

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