170 – Chad Napier: Drug Trends and Risk in Our Communities

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Dr. Sandie Morgan and Dave Stachowiak talk to Chad Napier about the devastating impact drug use has had in his community and the dangers of synthetic drugs.

Key Points

  • West Virginia leads the nation in drug overdose
  • National average is 19.8 per 100,000 but West Virginia is 52 per 100,000
  • Babies with Neonatal Abstinence Syndrome need to be weaned off the drugs after birth
  • Whenever there is a prescription pill problem, there is going to be a heroin problem (80% of heroin users come from prescription pill abuse)
  • Drug users often say that it’s no longer about being high, it’s about not getting sick from withdrawals
  • Fentanyl (a highly potent synthetic drug) is cut into almost every drug out there
  • We need to start looking at why people use drugs in the first place.


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Dave: [00:00:00] You’re listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast, this is episode number 170, Chad Napier: Drug Trends and Risks in Our Communities.

Production Credits: [00:00:11] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave: [00:00:30] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie: [00:00:36] My name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave: [00:00:38] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Sandie, we’ve been spending the last couple of episodes of hearing from some of the experts that we had at the Ensure Justice conference this year in 2018. And today, another expert that is going to again challenge us with some new thinking and help us to study the issues, such an important mission of what the Global Center for Women and Justice is all about. Right?

Sandie: [00:01:09] Absolutely.

[00:01:11] I am so glad to welcome to our show today Chad Napier. Chad is the prevention coordinator for Appalachia HIDTA, which is the high-intensity drug trafficking area for West Virginia and Virginia since 2015. Prior to this position, he spent 20 years in law enforcement and retired back in 2015. In 1997, he was assigned to the CPD street crimes unit with the primary duties of investigation, arrest, and prosecution of street-level drug deals. For three years he was assigned as a detective with the Metropolitan drug enforcement network team, with the primary duties of investigation and prosecution of state and federal drug violations. He was later appointed the commander of the Metropolitan drug enforcement network team. He’s worked on hundreds of drug-related arrests and drug violations. And he’s also been declared as an expert witness in illegal drug possession and distribution in many state and federal courts. Chad we’re so glad to welcome you to Ending Human Trafficking.

Chad: [00:02:12] Thanks for having me.

Sandie: [00:02:13] We’re so excited. Originally, I tried to do an interview with you and your partner with Handle with Care, Andrea Karr. But we already interviewed her a couple episodes ago and now I’m really glad that you weren’t both available because we need more time with each of you individually. So, welcome. Let’s start off with learning a little bit more about what does it mean, the HIDTA, what does that really entail.

Chad: [00:02:44] HIDTA stands for High Intensity Drug Trafficking Area. So, there are 28 HIDTAs across the country, and I work for Appalachia HIDTA. And Appalachia HIDTA is in West Virginia, Kentucky, Tennessee. And Virginia. But HIDTAs are funded by the Office of National Drug Control Policy. So, like I said, there’s 28 across the country, and mainly they find your drug units throughout the areas that are designated as HIDTA counties and to dismantle and disrupt drug trafficking organizations and also money laundering organizations. But some HIDTAs also have prevention education coordinators, and that’s what I do.

Sandie: [00:03:19] So how would a listener find out if there is a HIDTA in their area?

Chad: [00:03:22] You can Google it online and look for your area, and find out what HIDTA actually represent your area. Like I said, there’s 28 across the country, I think they are in 49 states. So, if you get online, you can find out what counties are actually HIDTA counties and those that are not.

Sandie: [00:03:36] OK, I have a feeling we have some of those here in California.

Chad: [00:03:40] You definitely do.

Sandie: [00:03:41] We will definitely start looking that up. So, tell us a little bit about your work, on a day to day basis. What do you do?

Chad: [00:03:49] Spend a lot of time in schools. Last year we had six initiatives, this year we have two initiatives. In our initiative this year, one is the Handle with Care initiative, which you’re very familiar with. And then another initiative we have is Chasing the Dragon, which is an FBI and DEA joint venture, in order to bring knowledge to the opioid epidemic and the dangers of prescription pill abuse. So, on a given day, I may speak to 1000 kids at once. You know I’m not naive, as I go into a topic it’s about the drug awareness, drug trends. Take the attitude, you are speaking to these kids they’re very smart. You know, if one listens and doesn’t go down that road, then it’s obviously well worth my time. But also, I do a lot of education when it comes to professionals, especially teachers and principals. But I don’t exclude any of us, spoken of a lot of colleges, and then also even for hospitals and other professionals.

Sandie: [00:04:41] OK, so when I met you and Andrea, you used the expression that your HIDTA is ground zero for the opioid crisis. And can you tell me what that feels like because it is a battle? So, describe what your situation is right there.

Chad: [00:05:04] Well, West Virginia unfortunately, we’re leading the nation in the drug overdose death rate. The national average is going to be around 19.8 per 100,000 and West Virginia is at 52 per 100,000. We also lead the nation in new cases of hepatitis B, and we lead the new cases of hepatitis C. We are first in neonatal abstinence syndrome, babies born exposed to drugs. The national average is around 6 per thousand, and West Virginia is at 53 per thousand. Then our hardest hit community in West Virginia sets in our across state area West Virginia, Kentucky, Ohio area is 153 per thousand. So, you know with this opioid epidemic, we’re starting to obviously see all the other things that come along with it and that’s blowing up our school system, our foster care. And then you look at all the diseases that are associated with it. So, when you look at Kentucky and southern Virginia, which we represent the Appalachian HIDTA area, the numbers are also very high.

Sandie: [00:06:02] Wow, so we just need to stop and unpack that a little bit. Because you talked about the drugs, you talked about drug overdose, you talked about foster youth, and you talked about babies. So, the overdose deaths, and there’s also probably the ones that were saved, right? So that rate is probably very related to that, and we’re seeing that here in our own community. Here in Orange County with a significant spike in overdose deaths and the impact on the kids, drug-addicted parents have children who then become labeled Drug Endangered Children. And Andrea addressed that really well. So, the foster systems, what happens when there’s this epidemic?

Chad: [00:07:00] You know there are so many kids that are in the foster system and waiting to be adopted in West Virginia, and there’s just not enough families. So, we have what we would term a lot of couch surfing. Kids go in between house to house, and then also where you happen, I’m sure Andrea probably mentioned it to you, you know we ran across a teacher who just said, “I have a second grader living at my house, you know not in the foster system, just nowhere to go.” So, it’s really caused a lot of issues in our community. We have a lot of grandparents that are raising grandkids because of parents that have overdosed and died. Or that is just you know fighting through the addiction, maybe through treatment. But you know, with the treatment you see a lot of relapses, so they’re just not able to take care of their children.

Sandie: [00:07:42] Yeah. And I’m sure that my listeners are like me, as you describe that grandparents raising their grandchildren and no place, no placements, no homes available, and the couch surfing. Images come to my mind, people come to my mind, organizations come to my mind, where we’re seeing that same thing happen here in our region. Tell me more about what happens to the babies. That’s kind of something we haven’t talked about a lot.

Chad: [00:08:11] Yeah, we have a place called Lily’s Place in Huntington, which is kind of leading the nation when it comes to the neonatal abstinence syndrome. And they’re doing some really innovative things there as far as these kids, because you know it’s hard for these hospitals to address this. So, they’re specifically taking care of a lot of those issues. And like I said, people are starting to model their programs off of what they are doing in Huntington. And when you see these babies born exposed to different types of drugs, these babies can’t just be cuddled like we would cuddle a normal baby. You can’t rock them, you can’t have light really bright, because all these things bother the baby. So, they’re able to go in and provide a more soothing environment. But something else they do, you know a lot of these babies have to be weaned off the drugs, so slowly weaning them off of them. And then having the family there also, the mother and the father there, and provide support services whether that’s through treatment or just parenting issues. So, it’s really a wraparound service for these kids that are born exposed.

Sandie: [00:09:15] Wow. OK, so you’ve created a great need for us to understand why drug trends are important. It’s just not about “this is what the government’s doing.” It’s not just about DEA, but it’s about what we need to know in our own backyard. So, give us a little lesson on how things have changed in the last five or 10 years.

Chad: [00:09:39] Well for us, here where I’m from, crack cocaine was the number one drug that we always dealt with. You know, I’m from the largest city in Western Virginia and crack was just the drug of choice. We’ve seen that slowly changed to where prescription pills become a large part of that community. And we had a lot of people coming in on prescription pill abuse, that was probably early 2000, mid-2000, we’ve seen that change happen.

Chad: [00:10:06] And whenever you have a prescription pill problem, you’re going to have a heroin problem. The national statistic tells you that 80 percent of all heroin users come from prescription pill abuse. So, when we see here it feels Anapana which is an oxymorphone mix, that’s a 40-milligram pill, and it sells on our streets right now today for around 100 dollars a pill. When you can’t afford that pill any longer, and you don’t want to be sick, then we see people turning towards heroin.

Sandie: [00:10:35] Wait. You’re saying, “I think they are sick, but they don’t want to be sick.” What do you mean by that?

Chad: [00:10:42] Well, if they can’t get that drug, you can imagine having to pay 100 dollars per pill. You can’t get that drug, and you’re going to be deathly sick from withdrawal. When they no longer can afford that pill for 100 dollars, then they’re going out and moving on to heroin, which is cheaper and it keeps them from getting sick. And most of these users would tell you, “I would never take a dirty, nasty needle and you know shove it into my veins.” And they wouldn’t at the beginning, but it’s a progression as the tolerance builds up you start taking it all orally like everybody else would if the doctor prescribed medication. Then your tolerance builds up and you don’t get the same high. So, the next thing you’re crushing it, and you’re snorting it, which is getting into your system faster. And then your tolerance builds up, you’re not getting the same high and then you’re starting to shoot it up, which it gets into your system even quicker. Then the young people I talk to tell me it’s not about being high anymore. It’s about not being sick. “I just want to feel normal” so they have to have that drug just to feel somewhat normal again.

Sandie: [00:11:41] Wow, so you’re seeing a big spike in heroin sales?

Chad: [00:11:46] Yeah, in 2008 here in my area, and I spent 20 years working drugs mainly in the drug unit, I very rarely seen heroin in our area. It was here, but it was just the select members of our community that were users. And we would see our users travel into source states which are close by like Baltimore, New Jersey, and D.C. and picking up [00:12:08] bendalls [0.0] of heroin. And a [00:12:09] bendall [0.3] was a one by one package, it has approximately about 0.1 of a gram of heroin in it. In your bigger cities, where they were going to pick it up, it would sell for five dollars for that [00:12:18] bendall. [0.0] Here in our area, it sells for 20 to 30 dollars, so we would have users traveling up to those areas and buying. If you buy ten [00:12:25] bendalls, [0.1] they refer to that as a bundle, gives you a little better deal. They will go up and buy a couple bundles, they will come back and they would sell half, and they would use half.

Chad: [00:12:34] Well from 2010-11, we’ve seen a 400 percent increase in the heroin we’ve seized within our drug unit, which is the largest drug unit in West Virginia. So, we went from just users, now to dealers coming down from [00:12:46] soare [0.3] states like Detroit, and just overwhelming our communities with a large amount of heroin because we had so many people addicted to prescription pills. So, it was it was an easy market for them. And now we’ve kind of progressed from the heroin to the fentanyl, which is a synthetic. Fentanyl is 50 times stronger than heroin, it’s 100 times stronger than morphine, and that’s why we’re seeing a lot of overdose deaths involving the fentanyl.

Sandie: [00:13:13] Wow. OK so describe the difference between heroin and fentanyl.

Chad: [00:13:18] You know heroin obviously comes from the poppy plant. It is semi-synthetic, [00:13:23] since [0.3] of morphine. You know there’s three of the naturally occurring substances [00:13:27] the Abang, [0.5] codeine, and morphine. Whereas fentanyl is man-made, it’s synthetic. And as I said it’s 50 times stronger than heroin. So, if you take pure fentanyl, you take a salt shaker for example, and you have pure fentanyl in that salt shaker, and you dump it out on your table, and you separate two to five granules of that fentanyl, that’s enough to overdose and kill you. So, it doesn’t take much of that substance to cause an overdose. And the reason it doesn’t is that it’s nonpolar. And when I say nonpolar, if you take a picture of water and you dump in cooking oil in with it, what happens? They separate they don’t mix right. So, when you take a drug it has to cross that blood-brain barrier in your brain. So, fentanyl, where it’s nonpolar it races and it crosses that blood-brain barrier very easily, and it doesn’t absorb where it’s nonpolar, so it races right across the receptors. Whereas you have like morphine or if you have heroin, they are also nonpolar but they have some polar molecules also attached. So, when they hit that blood-brain barrier they have a harder time crossing and they absorb as they go across.

Chad: [00:14:38] So for me it would be like taking a bottle of water and you’re on a smooth desk and me dumping it towards you, that water is going to race across towards you. Whereas if you put a bounty towel between it, you know it’s going absorb, it may make its way if you have enough water over to you but it’s going to absorb as it goes across. Well, that’s the way the drugs are, the morphine the heroin, they absorb as they go across your brain. Whereas fentanyl doesn’t, it races across one to two hours is how long the high lasts. The extreme high that lasts a short period of time, one to two hours, compared to heroin which lasts six to eight hours. So, we see a lot of the depression of the central nervous system breathing and then we have a lot of people obviously overdose.

Sandie: [00:15:18] OK, so what do we do?

Chad: [00:15:22] You know right now I don’t know. You know out here I was looking at the statistics yesterday, as I was sending them out amongst some of our professionals that I work with. And approximately 25 percent of our overdoses in West Virginia right now, and we’re leading the nation as far as per capita, involve fentanyl. Prescription pills are lower, 10 to 15 percent. But recently I saw an Ohio article that said that opiates and heroin is no longer their drug of danger. It’s now cocaine, and 70 percent of their overdoses involve cocaine mixed with fentanyl. So, we’re starting to see these other drugs that are being diluted and mixed with fentanyl. Where in the past, when you would take a drug like cocaine you want to mix that with something cheap in order, they call it “stepping on it” or “mixing it”, because you want to make more money from it, you want to make it go further. Now we’re seeing a grab in the market with a strong fentanyl of that cartels mixing it in, and we found it in meth, we found it in cocaine. Obviously, the majority of heroin, it’s easier for our drug units here in my area, Charleston, it’s just as easy for them to buy fentanyl that’s purported to be heroin, as it is to buy heroin in our area. So, we’ve got to realize that we’re dealing with a drug that when you touch it, it can absorb into your skin and cause you to get high. So, for law enforcement that’s a danger. Or if you touch it and then you touch your nose, your mouth, you can cause yourself to overdose which we’ve seen that within our law enforcement and how strong it is. We’ve seen DEA now say that we will not still test any substance that may have Fentanyl in it. Well, what are you going to still test, because we’ve seen it in every drug just about out there.

Sandie: [00:17:19] Wow. And it comes in, it might be in a pill, it might be in a powder, it might be a patch?

Chad: [00:17:24] Yeah, it’s you know when you first started hearing about fentanyl, it was used for terminally ill cancer patients. And when I was in the drug unit, we would hear people taking the patches and sucking the gel out of it, or freezing it, or doing whatever they could to get that gel out. And we would find them overdosed with those patches in their mouth and that was early on. And you always heard it from a pharmaceutical or medical standpoint, but now you know when we’re talking about fentanyl being cut or mixed in with heroin. It kind of threw me off when we first started hearing it because of just what I explained to your a while ago, is that normally you’re going to mix that drug with something cheap in order to make it go further, like heroin a good thing to mix with is like a sleeping aid. Why? Because good heroin gives you the nod. So now we see your cutting heroin with fentanyl, why? You know that seems expensive, it seems counterproductive.

Chad: [00:18:09] So one of my buddies is a DEA agent there in Adkins, he was out of the Lunda Kentucky office, he kind of explained it to me and this was early on. He said you can know people were getting online and ordering 4-ANPP from China. So, we have three hundred eighty dollars, and we order ANPP from China. All right, it comes in, and then we get online and it shows you the conversion. So, if you have a chemistry background it wouldn’t be overly hard for you to do, so you convert that 380 dollars of ANPP, it’s one step away from fentanyl. And we successfully convert it. We’re going to make 18 grams of pure fentanyl. Well, two to five granules of pure fentanyl is enough to overdose and kill you. So, you have to dilute it down. You have to be very careful to dilute that down obviously. You dilute that down successfully you’ll make 1.8 kilos of fentanyl. All right. Each kilo of heroin sells on a wholesale level for approximately 30 thousand dollars per kilo. And a kilo is 2.2 pounds, a thousand grams. Fentanyl sells for approximately 32,000 dollars a kilo. So, look how much money you make, and from that small investment where you’ve ordered from China. So as a cartel, why would you want to have poppy fields, where you have to put forth all the effort, and have somebody there watching you grow one, and then you have to purify it. When you can just order a powder from China, you can pay a chemist to convert it. It is much stronger than heroin, going to give them a really intense high, and they can sell it very easily. And like you said, they can put it in pill form, they can make a lot more money by doing that rather than selling that in kilo form. So that’s what we see happen, and I don’t think the cartel wants to kill their clients, but they’re willing to make the amount of money they’re making from fentanyl, and that’s why we see it in all the different products we’re seeing.

Sandie: [00:20:01] Well and for years on this on this podcast, we’ve talked about why human trafficking happens. And greed is always one of the top issues, people want to make money. And selling drugs, selling people, is one way that they do that. And the intersection then between selling drugs and drug addiction with human trafficking at our conference, we talked about instances where you brought it up, you said you know people say I would never stick a dirty needle in my arm but then when that level of addiction and just the need to feel okay is so intense. And we interviewed Dr. Michael Hanna on a previous podcast about that addiction issue. We have cases where parents have not only neglected or abused their children, or their kids have been exposed to drugs, but their kids have been sold to make money for buying the drugs. And that’s one of the things that we want to begin to understand in our own communities. Does this exist? If it’s only happening in in your area, Chad, but I don’t think so. I think we can learn a lot from what you’re doing there. So, let’s talk about what you say to the kids when you go to the school, you show them pictures of what’s real and what’s fake? How do you do prevention?

Chad: [00:21:34] Yeah, with my program, I mainly address the middle school and the high school level. We know from studies that the elementary school you need to release, seven to nine is a really good age to start. So, we do have programs that other people that I work with are also going into schools and presenting. But I show them a couple of my friends, that in middle school two of my buddies that were good kids, that made good grades, played sports, and they went down the road to drug addiction, and they both died by the age of 31. You know they weren’t bad kids. They made some bad choices later on. And I tell them, where would I be, do you think if I continued to do the same thing that my friends did. And I tell them, I don’t judge as I go out here and deal with people. I say for the grace of God, dare go I went down that same road had I made some bad choices also. And then I go into the most popular drugs. You know right now in our area, we’re having a huge thing with what’s termed as “juuling”. If you’ve seen, are you familiar with the e-cigarettes the juul, looks like a thumb drive?

Sandie: [00:22:40] Yes, I saw that from Steven Lambert at Ensure Justice. I would never have thought it was something that could deliver drugs.

Chad: [00:22:49] Yeah and you know right now it starts out kind of innocent in our middle schools. And it’s really popular in our area and a lot of the teachers don’t even realize it. The thumb drive is the device, it’s the e-cigarette that you can plug into your computer, and has little Maude’s in it with the different levels, different flavors of nicotine in it. But you can also introduce synthetic drugs through them. So, we see kids in bathrooms, five and six at a time, passing it around. And they refer to as getting “nic sick”, from too much nicotine at once or getting a “nic buzz”. And you know it’s sad because it starts you out down that road. You know it starts out innocent but next thing you know, somebody offers you that and it doesn’t have the nicotine in it, it has the synthetic drug or what have you. So, we try to help with peer pressure for those type of things. We talk about prescription pill abuse. And one of the things I like to tell them is, you know all of you here would say that you wouldn’t ever use heroin, that you would never do the intravenous drug use. But what takes them there? You know when somebody offers you that pill, which seems like it’s no big deal, that that’s how 80 percent of your heroin users obviously started using heroin because they got addicted to that pill, which is no big deal. And a lot of kids think like a Lortabs Zany bars are huge in areas that are no big deal they’re just fine. Well, we just talked about the fentanyl and stamping those pills into Lortab, hydrocodone, zany bars, or what have you. A lot of these kids get this from either people they know. But a lot of it comes from the black web, where you get on the Internet you’re able to, if you have access to money or a credit card, you’re able to order these pills across the Internet. Well, when you’re ordering from a place like that, it’s only a matter of time before you’re going to get the federal appeals. We’re seizing them all throughout our area in West Virginia.

Sandie: [00:24:37] So these kids and we learned it at Ensure Justice, the earlier a child starts to experiment, the more likely they are to become an addict. The later you start doing any kind of addictive behavior, even smoking, the less likely you will become an addict. And so, this kind of prevention, I love that somebody is doing stuff from seven to nine years of age in elementary school. So, then we’ve got just a couple minutes, teachers are going to be emailing me saying, “but what about us?” So, what are you telling the teachers?

Chad: [00:25:14] Well, when we go in with the teachers, I went out to do presentations and I’ll ask a teacher I’ll be like “how many of you know what Molly is?”. You know Molly’s pure MDMA mixed with a lot of time with bath salts or your synthetics, And I can ask them in front of the kids, 65 to 70 percent of the kids will know the drug Molly, whereas 10 percent approximate teachers when I first started knew what Molly was. Or if you talk about [00:25:44] his or [0.5] or purple dank, as you hear and a lot of these kids know what that is. They know that’s codeine mixed with like Jolly Ranchers and your flavored drinks or what have you. Why? Because they know it through their music. You know, they may not have been introduced to it at their school, but their music that they’re listening to is telling them that’s cool. You know that’s something that you want to be involved with. So just educating teachers on the terms of the juuling and the different things that are really popular within the schools, because a lot of them have no clue. They have no clue what’s going on the streets as far as how that’s translating, but also in your pop culture [00:26:16] what then you’re raised [1.1] and your schools as far as what is trending, as far as the new music industry goes, because that’s where a lot of these kids are from.

Sandie: [00:26:25] Wow, teachers were going to have to put together a podcast just for you, to help with this. And Chad, we’ll reach back out to you to look for that. What about, one last question and then we have to close. What about parents? What do you say to parents?

Chad: [00:26:43] Parents, you got to be involved. You know you just have to be involved with your kids. The majority of the things that we’re talking about from juuling you know they are $39.99. And then you’re talking about the pod, that you put in, and then you’re talking about pills that are very expensive. Know where your kid’s money is going. You know, if you’re giving it to them, please keep up with it. Know who they are hanging out with. Be an active parent, because it’s so important. Kids want you to talk to them about drug abuse. They can be difficult. I have two myself. But they want you to talk to them. They want you to be engaged, so be engaged and know what your kids are doing. Know who they’re hanging out with. So just be an involved parent.

Sandie: [00:28:45] I said that was the last question. But you started it at the beginning. Grandparents are raising grandkids now because of this. So, what are you going to say to the grandparents?

Chad: [00:28:53] You know a lot of them tell me it’s just not fair. You know it’s not always the way it was intended to be. You know we love our grandkids and we would do whatever. But this is not where we thought we’d be at the age of retirement or what have you. So, I think it’s going to come down to a lot of education on our part. We know that when the family breaks down we see a lot of problems in our society. And we’re definitely seeing that, where single parents and really parents become addicted trying to do the best they can. Then the action just takes over. So, I think for us as a society, we have to start looking at why people are using drugs in the first place. We can tackle the drug, and we can knock out cocaine, or we can knock out crystal meth, which is another talk that’s huge in our area. But until we find out why people are turning to drugs in the first place, we’re going to continue this cycle I think. In our area it’s a sense of hopelessness, you know the loss of jobs, the breakdown of the family structure. So those are some of the huge things that we’re going to have to address.

Sandie: [00:29:42] Chad, you are just a delight to talk to. And I don’t think it’s just your West Virginia accent. Just love your heart and your passion for kids and for families. And we’ll definitely have you come back. Thank you so much for your time today. And people can reach out to you through the Global Center for Women and justice. You can also go to the Handle with Care web page, which we’ll have that link in our show notes. And I’m sure there’s a lot of resources there that you can start using in your schools and in your community. So, thank you, Chad, so much for being with us today.

Chad: [00:30:14] Thanks and you guys have a great day.

Dave: [00:30:16] Sandie, there so many things that I learned in this episode that just as we talked about so critical for teachers, parents, grandparents to know about. I’m overwhelmed with going to track down some information after this. You know we talk a lot about studying the issues and this is an important part of that as a way of studying the issues.

Sandie: [00:30:31] That’s right. And I love how Chad went back to what are some of the root causes and ground zero in the U.S. is an area where there just are no jobs, so we go back to some of the basics we’ve learned about exploitation, no options.

Dave: [00:30:44] For more of the basics go to endinghumantrafficking.org. Or you can stay connected with us there, you can also track down all of the past episodes. We will be back in two weeks for another conversation. Thanks, Sandie.

Sandie: [00:30:53] Thanks, Dave.

Dave: [00:30:54] Take care, everyone.

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