47 – Partnership: Law Enforcement and Church Leaders

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Partnership – the fourth “P” – is an element that requires those who come from very different backgrounds and missions to find common ground to stand on, seeking opportunities for effective community engagement and Prevention of human trafficking. Global Center for Women and Justice Director Sandra Morgan and Dave Stachowiak, one of the Center’s board member, facilitate an important discussion on Partnership between Law Enforcement and Church Leaders with Reverend Zollie Smith, Director of U.S. Missions for the General Counsel of the Assemblies of God, and Lieutenant Derek Marsh, founding Law Enforcement officer for the Orange County Human Trafficking Task Force (OCHTTF).

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Dave: Welcome to the ending human trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie: And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave: And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. And Sandie I’m pleased to be back with you and for this episode to have two guests with us on this episode who both have studied the issues, have been voices, and have made a difference in ending human trafficking already, and I am just excited to hear about their wisdom and their guidance for how partnerships can work effectively, in this case, particularly, between Law Enforcement and church leaders.

Sandie: I’m excited about our guests today. I feel like it’s really important for us to figure out how to do really good community engagement – effective community engagement. But that doesn’t happen in fighting human trafficking, unless we understand our roles, and partnership according to our four “P”’s (now, we’ve talked about this before, is based on resources and expertise). So, I’ve invited two of my friends. Zollie Smith, Reverend. Zollie Smith is the director of US Missions for the General Counsel of the Assemblies of God. And my friend Lieutenant Derek Marsh, who is the founding Law Enforcement officer of our Orange County Human Trafficking Task Force, that you often hear me talk about. So, gentlemen, say hello to each other.

Zollie: Well, hello Derek. How you doing?

Derek: Good, sir. Yourself?

Zollie: I’m doing fine. Thank you. And, Sandie, thank you for having us.

Sandie: Well, I’m just excited to listen in on this conversation more than anything. You both represent huge constituencies that are concerned about human trafficking right here in our own country. And learning how to leverage our collaboration is going to be important to actually winning the battle. So, the question I have for each of you (and I’ll let you decide who wants to go first) is, What are the key ingredients to an effective partnership between church leaders and Law Enforcement?

Derek: Reverend, I’m going to defer to you, if you don’t mind.

Zollie: Okay. I figured you would do that.

Derek: That’s the kind of guy I am.

Zollie: I’m honored, Lieutenant. I think that’s a very, very good question, Sandie. And I understand that – clearly – that we live in a diverse society. We live in a society that dictates and, on many occasions, mandates, that many different groups – organizations – work together, in harmony, for the good of the people, and that the quality of life that we certainly would like for everyone to share and have. It is essential that the church – the faith-based community of our society – understands the importance of Law Enforcement in our society. And I think that the commonalty is that we all are concerned about the safety, the protection, the welfare, and the quality of life, and justice for everyone, which is so defined in our Declaration of Independence. And so when we look at the well-being of human beings, that is the commonality that brings us together: it’s people. We care about people, we care about the quality of the life that they live, and everybody deserves to live in America, with freedom and knows liberties that are essential to have and to bring about happiness. And so, that can only be achieved in the democracy where people, unfortunately, volley(4:25) those rights, volley(4:27) those laws, and as a result, people do suffer. Consequences are great and people are victimized. And, therefore, I can find no other way than to work with Law Enforcement departments, agencies – be they federal, state, or local – and happen to address the needs on behalf of the people.

Derek: Reverend, I couldn’t agree with you more. I have to agree that when you said that the well-being of people brings us together, and that’s really what we’re all about. While Law Enforcement isn’t a typical partner with the faith-based community, we have a tendency to believe ourselves, you know, more focused on getting the bad guys and putting them in jail. I think the human trafficking dynamic – the human trafficking focus – being so victim-centered and working towards helping victims before even the priority of arresting people (though it’s hard to swallow for us sometimes in the Law Enforcement community), dictates and mandates that we go out and we find viable partners to work with, and the faith based community provides a lot of bonuses for Law Enforcement when it comes to supporting and helping and advocating for our victims. We need to understand that from day one. Law Enforcement’s trained to go out and to put people in jail and do search warrants and write reports, and help prosecute, and make sure people are held accountable for, you know, violating our laws and violating the sanctity of people and, you know, victimizing others. But we aren’t so good, because we haven’t been really trained in it, it’s not our focus in supporting our victims: providing food, clothing, shelter, services, transportation, language skills, learning, societal reorientation; those aren’t things that are on our plate of things that we’re experts at, or really know how well to do. And I can tell you that a lot of those things, faith-based community efforts really help in supplementing, and in addition to that, besides the general day to day living concerns of the victim, there’s also that spiritual component and again Law Enforcement isn’t really focused on that. On a day-to-day world where you’re dealing with suspects and putting people in jail, or just responding to a regular car accident, or things like that, but when it comes to the victim-center approach in human trafficking, these people have been spiritually diminished, they’ve been marginalized; and it takes the faith-based community to bring someone back up and to remind them, and to reinvigorate that spiritual awareness, and Law Enforcement really isn’t in that place, but it’s something that the faith-based community is excellent at providing and is essential, I would think, and I would say for any victim who’s been, you know, the victim of any kind of human trafficking or exploitation.

Zollie: Well, I certainly agree with you Lieutenant. I mean, the fact – and I guess I have an advantage in the sense that I was in Law Enforcement, both on the local level and on the federal level and served for 12 years and really appreciate and love the Law Enforcement part of our society. And I on the spiritual side of it from the church’s perspective I think you nailed it on the head is that the needs of victims especially dealing with this human trafficking issue expands beyond just one organization or association. It’s big enough that everyone who really believes that it’s our obligation and duty to come to the aid of those who’ve been victimized by these heinous crimes that we must understand that collaboration and that (8:08) is essential. From the (8:11) of the resources and the expertise that you bring – the expertise of understanding what it means to rescue a victim or to investigate the crimes that are reported – the average church going person, or pastor, has no idea of what that entails. However, when it comes to the component of caring for them, and finding shelter and counseling and nurturing, from a holistic perspective the church can come to that aid and we can work together and looking at, again, the individuals and trying to make then whole, and complete, to bring about self-worth that has been stolen from them through these types of crimes that take place. And so I think that surely, when we look at the holistic approach, we cannot push anyone aside, we need everyone at the table. And I think that when, you know, you look at the four “P”’s, that we talked about, of human trafficking and you talk about prevention and you talk about protection and prosecution and partnership. I think that, without question, that not one agency can do it alone. And when we work together and take advantage of the resources and the expertise that each of the agencies, or the groups – come together – bring, we can overcome this devastation of inhumanity against humanity. And so Law Enforcement and the church make a great team if we can appreciate and respect the roles that each plays in this endeavor.

Derek: Reverend, I couldn’t agree more, especially when you spoke (and Sandie spoke about this a little earlier, too) about clarifying our roles. I think a lot of the hesitation Law Enforcement may have is that it’s hard to see where faith-based organizations fit into day-to-day police work and in some cases it doesn’t. I mean, in many ways our day-to-day paper pushing and stuff don’t always allow for a faith-based community component. But again because, like what you said about the four “P”’s, with the diversity of interest groups and individuals who are trying to help and assist in the human trafficking situation/dynamic, trying to eliminate that from the heinous crime that it is, I think it’s imperative that we understand that everyone brings something special to the table, that the faith-based community has valuable resources, has valuable expertise, has a valuable component to contribute that Law Enforcement can benefit from, and vice versa. You know, if you find a victim in the faith-based community, it’s one thing to find the victim and to help them, but I know bringing closure to them can also be finding the person who exploited them, who trafficked them and holding them accountable in the justice system. So it’s kind of a two-way street. It’s important I think for Law Enforcement to understand that no one is trying to take over their role as investigators, no one is trying to take their role as, you know, report writers, or assisting with prosecution or the people to arrest, in fact it’s going to supplement and make their jobs so much better and make their reports better to have someone who is properly supported from a victim perspective, to have someone have a group of people who are supporting you in your efforts so that you know that you don’t have to watch your back when it comes to victim support. You know that you have somewhere, if you find a victim in the middle of the night, you can call and you can rely on them to be there and understand that what they’re going to do is going to be a positive effect for the victim and you’re not just throwing them out to some agency that you’ve never heard of before or don’t know what to expect. It takes a lot off of an officer’s shoulders to know they can focus on what they’re experts at and allow the faith-based community to focus on what they’re expert at, and that’s bringing people back from being exploited and being, you know, emotionally and psychologically traumatized through this crime.

Zollie: Woah. Excellent.

Sandie: Reverend Zollie, I just had to tell you because I know you have 7 windows, basically, of types of organizations under your leadership and I wanted to tell you one brief story from a few years ago, right here in Orange County, when I got a call from the Victims Service representative when they had done a rescue – Law Enforcement – under Lieutenant Marsh’s direction. And they needed a translator for a language that’s not a real common one here and they called me and said, didn’t you talk about an ethnic church of such and such extraction, and I said, just a minute let me make a phone call. And within a matter of a couple of hours we had a translator who was able to assist in working with the victim and they were able to communicate and get the necessary information so that they can continue to support the victim and pursue the case. That’s a great example of expertise and partnership.

Zollie: And that is exactly right. I think that, you know, when we look at the big picture and if we can indeed – whether it’s on the Law Enforcement side or on the faith-based side. And then there are other non-profit organizations who are out there who have the passion and the dedication to be a difference-maker in this arena as well. And I was so impressed when I visited and saw Lieutenant Marsh and yourself and the Orange County task force against human trafficking. That was the model that impressed me to the point, and I’ll tell you why that impressed me so:  number one, you were able to bring together a networking of different agencies (ICE, LOCO 14:13, FBI, local Law Enforcement, social services, and you name it). Every group that was essential in being, what I would call, key operatives, were there, and the meeting was focused on sound solid communication, every one of those operatives.  And, of course, I want to include the church because what  happened was, I was able to meet with the churches that had also organized themselves into a group, and they  met just prior to the main meeting to discuss the involvement of the local churches and the faith-based organizations, which I thought was great. It was open, everybody was clear in their communication and understanding, and when the meeting was co-joined, it just displayed what a true partnership, fellowship, collaboration, organization looks like. And so, I was thoroughly impressed, and I know it can work, is when everyone realizes that what they are bringing is their area of expertise, their resources for the common good of humankind, and especially for those poor young women and men who have been oppressed, who have been marginalized, and oppressed by the violation of the laws by others.

Sandie: So, Lieutenant Marsh, sometimes it doesn’t go the way that model that Reverend Zollie just described to us – it doesn’t go that way in our community. And, when things go wrong with that, can you talk to us about the challenges that creates for Law Enforcement, and might actually contribute to resistance of Law Enforcement to work with the community.

Derek: Yes I can. And I would like to thank the Reverend for his support of the Orange County task force. I can’t say enough for you acknowledging the work that, and it’s really a lot of people that have gone in. The communication is what you mentioned; I think that’s really key. That consistent communication, that consistent interaction, when you’re looking at people across the way, you’ve taken the time to appreciate what their role is, you’ve affirmed them in the importance of what they do, and they become a part of the overall (I don’t want to make it sound impersonal, but it’s kind of like a) machine – the mission, if you will – and that they have a valuable part to play and that makes everybody want to work that much harder to get things done and to accomplish our goals. On the flip side (Sandie, what you’re asking), there are times when people’s passion for this, especially human trafficking, seems to me, takes the better of them. Sometimes they don’t feel that things are happening quick enough, or to whatever their perception of appropriateness is. And some people that have been from faith-based communities, some not, but they have gone out and decided, well, we can go out and actively rescue people, we can go out and actively do investigations, we can go out and contact our victims directly. We can go to… We’ve had people literally go onto backpages.com, find people they believe might be at risk minors of sexual exploitation and trafficking, and actually call to make an appointment and show up to their hotel room with their pimp just around the corner, with their trafficker just around the corner. And I can’t express enough the kind of danger that puts those people in. Not just the people who are going to that room, but the victim as well. And also, with Law Enforcement, we have to redo all of that. I mean, we respect that people want to help, but it’s almost to the point where it gets to interfering. And unfortunately if enough of those people are out… We had a newspaper article here recently, here in Orange County, that almost kind of valorized a couple people for doing this very thing and then Law Enforcement begins to distrust them because that’s our world, that’s what we do. We have back-up, we have radios, we have training that’s focused on that. If we see someone who’s at risk, we’re going to grab them right then and there. And even if those people do call Law Enforcement, most of the time it’s not someone who works with HT all the time (human trafficking all the time), and so the response isn’t what they were hoping it could be. It isn’t affirmative, it isn’t a multidisciplinary, diverse approach that’s required and so everyone walks away dissatisfied. The people going out interacting with these people and these victims, and the Law Enforcement who works with them, and frankly all the other partners at the table that the Reverend mentioned, we’ve all missed an opportunity, we’ve all failed that day because one victim got away. And really that’s what we’re trying to do: we’re trying to stop it. And it’s great to get a suspect, it’s great to put someone in jail, hold them accountable. But to see someone slip through your fingers like that and lose that opportunity, that puts Law Enforcement in a real cynical mode when it comes to making future partnerships

Sandie: Well, what about, you know, somebody said to me that, “Well, we did all this, and we gave them all this evidence and then they didn’t even prosecute”? What do they mean by they gave you evidence? What can you do with evidence that wasn’t collected under Rule of Law?

Derek: Well, and again we have to redo it all ourselves. You know, when I go out and train on trafficking here in California, one of the key components of trafficking is corroboration. I’ve got to be able to say whatever I found out I’m able to corroborate. And it’s nice that they have a website – a backpage.com website – I can find that. It’s nice they rented a room: I can confirm that. But I don’t know the context in which they were contacted, I don’t know the words that were said, they’re not being recorded, even if they were being recorded, what kind of pressure does that bring? You know, I don’t control that environment. So, I have to recreate everything from scratch. So, while the efforts are allotable in the sense of, I appreciate people wanting to affirmatively act and try to help out and to save people. From a prosecution perspective, it doesn’t do one iota of good for us other than acknowledging that there was a problem. And we have to start from scratch. And a lot of times, because the person – the trafficker, or the pimp, or whatever you want to call him, the exploiter – has been warned we’re coming, they’re in the wind. And that just, that ends that option for us from that moment on. Obviously, I guess, from my world, I would ask people not to do that.

Sandie: Right.

Derek: I mean, if you’re asking me to make a categorical… I know in Orange County, I can speak for us, we actually had a letter from one of our previous chiefs saying we won’t tolerate – in a sense, condone – that type of activity. And I think that’s been the position of every partner that has stuck with the Orange County Task Force, has been. If you’re looking for support, if you’re looking for back-up from both non-profits, from federal agencies, local Law Enforcement agencies, faith-based communities, whatever, we’ve got to agree that each of us has strengths we bring to the table and respect each of those partners, what they bring to the table, what their expertise is, what their resources are, and allow them to fill those roles they best fill, and not try to step on other people’s toes, say, “You know? Today I want to be a cop, today,” or, “Tomorrow I want to be a faith-based…” It would be silly for me to pretend I’m a pastor. Like it’s silly for a pastor (except for you Reverend, because you’ve been there, done that), for the most part, to say, “Now I’m a police officer today,” right? So, you’ve got to be super careful what hat you wear, because there’s a lot of responsibilities that go with that and it can really confuse an issue very quickly, and when you confuse that issue, you lose sight of your victim, and you lose sight of the mission. And that’s something that any cop hates to do. I know you, Reverend, are very focused on the mission and getting things accomplished. It works against the overall goal. It doesn’t do anybody any good.

Zollie: Well, you know, the Bible states that people are destroyed for a lack of knowledge, and unfortunately, what I’ve seen happen in the human trafficking area. And it’s been disturbing to me and that generated my enthusiasm and my desire to go out and get myself educated and to talk with… and of course Lieutenant you recall my comment that I had a meeting with you all to make sure that I understood, so that any missionaries in our organization – the Assemblies of God – would be clear minded as to what we’re doing and why we’re doing it. Based on what you’ve just stated, Lieutenant Marsh, we’ve got to understand that they’re full components to this, and the best way that they can be actually, in an effective way, given the proper attention, and hopefully bring about the results that we all want, is that we’ve got to realize the limitations of where we are and what we do. However, human trafficking is such an emotional driven, ungodly event that it tends to stir people up to (what I call) an adrenaline compassion. And by being driven by this adrenaline for compassion they overstep their bounds. They are driven by the excitement of the hour, of the grievous understanding of the results of behaviors that is taking place in other human beings, and they act too quickly, and certainly, usually, inappropriately. And we find out that there’s a lot of money being raised through this, as well. And it’s a unique situation that I think that when we work together, and when we give out the correct information, and we stand together with the different agencies, we’re going to be able to make a difference in a way that is going to not undermine or demise any of those that are involved, for instance, like the task force. So, I think that we’ve got to, somehow, we’ve got to communicate, we’ve got to educate the public. We’ve got to let them know and understand that we are working together in an effort to overcome this evil that’s somehow embedded itself in our communities, and our cities, and our schools, and throughout our country that we love so dearly. And for some way, somehow, that we can communicate this in the context of what has been defined in the Human Trafficking Prevention Act, that is clearly there; and sometimes, there is even misleading statistical data that people create to cause, I guess, or to stir up more excitement. But we’ve got to somehow communicate, and to let the public realize, that this is something that can be dealt with, this is something that we can see some resolve to if we just work together, if we unify our efforts, our resources and our expertise, which means then that we’re going to respect each other. I saw that in that task force. I saw it. And, unfortunately, I haven’t experienced it in any others.

Derek: Well, that’s unfortunate to hear. I can’t say enough about the importance of having those monthly meetings for our task force, of having everyone sitting across the table from each other, and justifying where they’re coming from, what’s happening, and really to get to know each other as people. In the end, an organization is represented by the people they put forward. When you build that trust with those people, when you see that they’re going to stand behind their word, and they’re going to follow through, and they’re going to take care of their corner, you know, their slice of pie, or whatever you want to call it, I’ll tell you what, it does wonders for the trust between those individuals, because at 02:00 in the morning, I’m not talking to a general faith-based community, I’m talking to Reverend Zollie. If I trust Reverend Zollie to follow through, then that’s one less thing I have to sweat. There’s nothing a police officer hates more is wasting time or spinning his wheels (or whatever the phrase of the day is) on a case and having somebody – no matter how well intentioned – perform some kind of action that sabotages that case, that sabotages their ability to do their job, and I’m sure you’d feel the same way from our end. You don’t want us to wear something we’re not. You know, we do our job and let you guys do yours and let you guys keep providing the resources because that’s where we all get our fulfillment from in the end is making it happen, because it’s about making sure these victims are fulfilled and they’re rescued, not just grabbed out of a place and set on their own devices, or have a lot of missed cues around the table. They need to have consistency. And that’s what the task forces are about, that’s what the communicating is about, that’s what (27:37) clarification’s about: it’s everyone understanding their place, performing their duties when they need to be performed, whether it’s at twelve-o’clock noon or 0-dark-thirty in the morning.

Zollie: Excellent

Sandie: I really appreciate that. One of the things that being part of the Orange County Human Trafficking Task Force that has been the most rewarding for me, is to see when that works really well. And what you said, Reverend Zollie, about education, one of the things that we tried to do is educate our community in appropriate ways of doing outreach and engagement in anti-trafficking. A few years ago, our Live2Free team went out and took posters and information to walk-in medical clinics and they educated the person who sees people come through that walk-in clinic where we expect to see possible trafficking victims who are looking for anonymous healthcare. And by doing that outreach, they didn’t compromise any on-going investigations; they just were part of our community reaching our community. Within hours, that receptionist called the 888-3737 number, which is our national Human Trafficking Resource Center, and then they called our task force representatives who did the investigation and two victims were rescued that day. That’s a wonderful example of everybody playing their own position on a great team.

Zollie: Exactly. Exactly. And we all win it together.

Sandie: Exactly. Hey, I just looked at the time, and I want to give you each one more opportunity but I want you to speak to your peeps, your constituents. And Derek, it’s been wonderful, for me, to grow up in this field of human trafficking under your mentorship, and I’ve tried to transfer my expectations to other Law Enforcement representatives and sometimes, it’s like you said earlier, they didn’t have Human trafficking training and they may not respond the same way you do.  How can we do a better job of that? Can you…? Just a statement for your peeps.

Derek: Well, I would say, if I’m speaking to other Law Enforcement officers, I would say number 1: trafficking is a unique beast. It’s nothing that… it’s not like the regular crime where you go, you handle your call, you arrest the people, and then you’re back in the field again, 20 minutes, or two hours later and you’ve forgotten about it. This is a big-time commitment, and it involves a lot of resources, and you need people to help you out. And you need to work with groups who are familiar with trafficking and appreciate the fact that this is a victim-centered approach, looking at rescuing victims and bringing them back from the exploitation they’ve suffered, and many times for years, since they were children. And, so, number one: be patient and understand that someone’s not going to do your job for you but they can sure supplement their job and make it easier. And number 2 is, you’ve got to keep the faith a little bit, not just the faith-based community. But understand it’s a process and not just an end in and of itself. And every case takes a long time and you guys gotta, you know, it’s a grindstone type of deal, but there are huge rewards at the end if you’re willing to invest your time into it.

Sandie: Thanks, Derek. Reverend Zollie, what would you say to pastors and leaders?

Zollie: Well, I think we must all respond to the clarion call of the Lord Jesus Christ, and that is, for the poor, the hungry, the oppressed, those who are in prison, infirmed, those who are victimized by the evils if this world, that we must be involved, we must out forth our best efforts to make a difference in their lives. However, I think that the church has to realize that we cannot do this alone, that we must work and collaborate and network our resources with Law Enforcement, and especially agencies, where those that are perishing and hurting, and especially in human trafficking, that their criteria’s are great. Their opportunities are fleeting. But when they do become present we need to be prepared to be in our place so that we can make a contribution that another soul will be saved. And the contribution of reaching, and being there, whether it’s through the acts of prevention and partnership, we are making a difference. And, so, I would say to all the pastors, your people are ready to get involved. They need training, they need education, and they need knowledge of what they’re doing before they get there. There’re agencies, there are organizations, that would do it for free if we would take the time to reach out and get involved. So, I just want to encourage every pastor: mobilize your saints, mobilize those precious souls that god has given you to be a difference-maker in your city, in your community. And, remember, we’re stronger together than we are separate, and that includes working with Law Enforcement, and our other agencies – be they state, federal, or local level – that are non-perish.

Sandie: Outstanding. Both of you are very articulate communicators, and it’s clear that you respect each other in your roles. And, so, I am very grateful for your willingness to share your stories and your thoughts with us, today. Dave? Wow.

Dave: You know? It’s so hard to know where to even start. I’ve been so privileged just to listen to this conversation, Sandie. And thank you, to both of you, for joining us, today. And I just couldn’t help but to notice one of the things that Reverend Zollie had mentioned is, you know, the importance of all of us in educating the public. And the great thing, you know, we’ve talked, Sandie, before on podcasts about how technology has created many challenges in ending human trafficking, but it’s also created many opportunities. And one of the opportunities is this show; this show is broadcast globally, anyone has access to it who has access to a computer, and we have people all over the world who listen to this show. And so, one of the things that I would share with everyone who’s listening to this is to take Reverend Zollie’s statement there very seriously, of education. And if you know someone who is in the faith-based community and in leadership, if you know someone in Law Enforcement, I challenge you to share this episode with them, and let this be a start to the conversation of us educating the public. And then, when you’re looking for resources, you know, Sandie, that’s a great place where the Center can be helpful. So, email us and let us know because even if the Center isn’t a resource, we can certainly put you in touch with folks, like Reverend Zollie and Lieutenant Marsh, who are resources in the community, who are experts in this field, and who know how to get you started. And so, if that is something that resonates with you, there’s two ways to get in touch with us: you can reach us by email at gcwj@vanguard.edu, or of course you can always reach us by phone at 714-966-6360

Sandie: Thank you, so much. Thanks, Zollie. Thank you, Derek. I appreciate you guys.

Zollie: Thank you, so much, Sandie. And Lieutenant Marsh: thank you, I appreciate you, and I love you, man.

Derek: Oh, well, right back at you. And I gotta say, thanks for including me. But, I’ll tell you, you were always an inspiration from the faith-based community. It’s always been a pleasure to work with him and interact with him.

Sandie: Alright. Have a great day.

Dave: I also want to let our audience know about one other resource. And you all – if you’ve listened to the show for some time you may remember we’ve done an episode on that fourth “P”: partnership. And we’ve talked a lot about that today. That’s episode number 7, and the best way you can get to it is to go to our website gcwj.vanguard.edu. go ahead and click on the button that says resources and podcasts, and you will see all the episodes listed there. Episode 7 is a great one to listen to if you haven’t already, on this partnership. And while you’re on the website gcwj.vanguard.edu, put your email address in the bottom left; you’ll get our newsletter every month. Sandie, it was great talking with you again, as always.

Sandie: Thanks, Dave.

Dave: Take care everyone.

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