373: What Happens to Survivors After They Reach Safety?

Derek Marsh joins Dr. Sandie Morgan to reflect on what they learned inside refugee communities in Greece — where Sudanese survivors of labor trafficking, and mothers rebuilding after violence, reveal how trust, disclosure, and practical support can change what people are able to name, ask for, and access.

Derek Marsh

Derek Marsh is Associate Director of the Global Center for Women and Justice at Vanguard University, where his work centers on education, prevention, and labor trafficking awareness. A longtime collaborator with Dr. Sandie Morgan and a recurring voice on the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast, he helps lead the Global Center’s annual study-abroad program in Greece, returning to refugee-serving communities there many times over the years. He came to anti-trafficking work through law enforcement, founding the Orange County Human Trafficking Task Force, and brings that frontline perspective to questions of victim identification and case development. On this trip, his expertise in labor trafficking — and his ability to connect man-to-man with male survivors who are often reluctant to identify themselves as victims — created space for Sudanese refugees to disclose exploitation they had not previously named.

Key Points

This year’s student group was strikingly independent, and a visit to the Young Diplomat Academy — hosted by Greece’s National Human Trafficking Rapporteur — opened the door to a possible future partnership.
For the first time, the team entered a refugee camp in remote Kyllini, where Sudanese men who had been labor trafficked lived three-and-a-half hours from Athens, making access to paperwork and services extremely difficult.
Survivors were hesitant to disclose their trafficking — partly because earlier promises of help had gone unfulfilled — and when they did open up, Derek was struck by how violent and physical their labor trafficking had been.
Having a man speak man-to-man with male survivors lowered their barriers, and they revealed that exploitation was continuing right near the camp, where local actors had quickly learned to target new arrivals.
Greece’s EKKA reported 891 identified victims — an admirable number for a nation of under 11 million on the front line of the Mediterranean migration crisis, where authorities must prioritize saving lives before investigating crimes.
At a separate camp for single mothers near Pyrgos, the team hosted a respite event with childcare, art therapy, and resources; the women had walked 45 minutes carrying their children to attend.
A student caring for a three-year-old watched him duck and cover at the sound of a passing plane — a vivid reminder that reaching safety is not enough, and that building resilience is key to a child’s recovery.
The closing challenge: you don’t need to visit a refugee camp to help — meet displaced people where they are, understand their context, and “look for the handle close to you,” whether abroad or in your own community.

Resources

Transcript

[00:00:00] Derek Marsh: It really opened my eyes, because that level of physicality, that level of exploitation, that level of force — I hadn’t really experienced in victim survivor stories in the past.

[00:00:12]

[00:00:18] Elisha: A group of Sudanese refugees escaped war, survived trafficking, and reached safety in Greece, only to find themselves vulnerable to exploitation all over again. In this episode, we hear what Dr. Sandie Morgan and Derek Marsh learned inside refugee communities, where trust, disclosure, and practical support can change what people are able to name, ask for, and access.

[00:00:40] Hi, I’m Elisha, and I’m a student here at Vanguard University. I help produce the show. Today, Sandie talks with Derek Marsh, associate director of the Global Center for Women and Justice, whose work includes education, prevention, and labor trafficking awareness. And now, here’s their conversation.

[00:00:56]

[00:00:58] Sandie Morgan: Well, Professor Marsh, welcome back to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast.

[00:01:06] Derek Marsh: Well, I feel welcomed. I also feel like I’m visually involved suddenly — whereas before we were only voices, now you’ve gone into the next level. So, congratulations.

[00:01:16] Sandie Morgan: All thanks to our amazing producer, Andrew Kroeger, who has made it so we are on YouTube, just like all the rest of the kids. So I’m excited about that. So this is your debut on YouTube, Professor Derek Marsh.

[00:01:33] Derek Marsh: Well, I could have waited for it, but thanks for having me now.

[00:01:37] Sandie Morgan: So you and I just got back from our annual study abroad for the Global Center for Women and Justice, and we were in Greece again this year. What were a couple of the highlights for you? You’ve done this trip many times. What was different?

[00:01:59] Derek Marsh: Well, I think the group we had this time was more independent than most of the other groups have been. So it was kinda nice to see them finding themselves and getting to locations. I know that sounds basic, but it shows a level of independence that, for a few years, we just didn’t have. They relied on us for all the directions — where we’re gonna go, how to get there.

[00:02:21] These folks, these young ladies were much more independent. And I’d also say the events that we pursued — we always go to Bridges ’cause we love Voula, we love Elias, and that’s a great place to go. But we went to a couple other places we hadn’t really been to before, which I think opened our eyes up a little bit more about the refugee and immigrant crisis occurring in Greece, but also all around that Mediterranean area.

[00:02:46] Sandie Morgan: I think one of the events we participated in was at the Young Diplomat Academy, and our host was the National Human Trafficking Rapporteur, Dr. Rajos. And his response to our group and our exercise in collaboration not only encouraged our students, but also has begun building an opportunity to partner in the future as well.

[00:03:21] So that was one of the highlights for me. And Bridges has already connected with some of their leadership as well.

[00:03:32] Derek Marsh: Yeah, I know the young ladies all appreciated the young diplomats. They were all dressed to the T’s. They had a lot of confidence. They were very well-spoken. It was a great insight into how that world of diplomacy — working in politics and policy — really works, and how you develop people to work in that world and be more proficient and efficient at it.

[00:03:58] So it was a great little insight, and they’re really smart young people there. Very smart young people.

[00:04:03] Sandie Morgan: And it bodes well for the future. And your remarks on our students — I actually feel very encouraged, because so many times, in so many conversations, there’s doubt about Gen Z and their leadership capacity. But we saw an aspect of Gen Z that was ready to take on any challenge and ready to explore. So I’m encouraged, and I’m excited about our conversation, because we were invited to visit a refugee camp where Sudanese refugees had recently been received.

[00:04:51] And on their journey out of a conflict in Sudan, they were trafficked along the way. And as we listened to their stories, what stood out to you about how they understood their experiences?

[00:05:10] Derek Marsh: Well, first I wanted to compliment you for getting us into a refugee camp to begin with, with all our connections, right? ‘Cause we’ve gone multiple times — I know you’ve been many more times than I have — but before, we’d talked about it but never been able to go and visit one. So it was nice this time to actually physically be there and interact with refugees.

[00:05:28] Sandie Morgan: And I should thank Dr. Heracles Moskoff, from a recent interview, because he and his department were the ones who facilitated those opportunities. So shout-out to our friends at the Office on Vulnerable People in the Ministry of Migration in Greece.

[00:05:52] Derek Marsh: And you just mentioned — my biggest depression about our trip is we didn’t get to talk to, or at least I didn’t get to talk to, Dr. Heracles, who I think is a great guy and really has some keen insights into the immigrant and refugee issues in Greece, and how that impacts their ability to pursue the intervention into, the identification of, and the case development of exploitation and human trafficking in Greece.

[00:06:21] Sandie Morgan: So let’s talk about the Sudanese — mostly men — that we met when we were in the refugee camp. We were in Kyllini, not far from Patras. If you know your geography in that part of the world, that’s almost at the other end of the Peloponnese Peninsula from Athens, and it’s a very remote area.

[00:06:53] Consequently, access to services for refugees — whether they’re seeking asylum or migration — is very challenging.

[00:07:07] Derek Marsh: And I was kind of surprised at how remote it was. I wasn’t surprised that it was remote, because I figured there just aren’t places in the city to house that number of refugees, and I appreciate that. However, I was surprised at how remote it was compared to the time it would take them to go to Athens to look for paperwork or get involved.

[00:07:30] That was a three-and-a-half-hour drive

[00:07:31] for us, and I have no idea what it would take by bus or train — maybe shorter, maybe longer. But that’s a big ask for someone who’s new to the country, may not speak the language as well, and has to navigate all the travel you need to find the right people once you’re in Athens, and then pursue the correct paperwork.

[00:07:51] And if you figure in the natural delay of any kind of process involved, it’s gotta be very frustrating for those folks, which they expressed. I don’t blame the Greek government or anything; it’s just the nature of having that process and that large number of refugees in country.

[00:08:11] Sandie Morgan: And when I spoke with some of the social workers who had engaged with these Sudanese refugees, there was a general consensus that they had clearly been labor trafficked, but that they were not very welcoming of disclosing that experience.

[00:08:36] Derek Marsh: Well, they did. They were very hesitant, and I don’t blame them. I think there are a lot of people who either talk to them briefly and then disappear, or who promised them things and haven’t delivered immediately. So I understand their hesitance to go through a very traumatizing experience over and over again, just to have no results come from it.

[00:08:59] They talk about having the advantage, in a sense. It’s not an advantage to be trafficked or exploited, but to have the opportunities that come with that victimization — to enhance their process for refugee or asylum seeking — but then see nothing happening over and over again, or to have much larger delays. I know that has to be frustrating for them, and they were expressing that frustration when we were there.

[00:09:26] Also, I think the other side of it was that they were so attentive when we were talking — that when they finally opened up and started disclosing what was happening, I was so surprised at the more brutal nature of the type of labor trafficking they were describing. Historically, I think we view it as more of a, “Oops, you got the wrong job and they took advantage of you,” and, “Oh, well.”

[00:09:51] It happens to everyone. When I was a kid, I got taken advantage of doing my job as a teenager. Everyone has issues. But these were much more violent, much more physical labor trafficking events, where they didn’t have a chance to leave — where they were actually beaten if they tried to leave or expressed a contrary opinion.

[00:10:08] So it really opened my eyes, because that level of physicality, that level of exploitation, that level of force — I hadn’t really experienced in victim survivor stories in the past.

[00:10:21] Sandie Morgan: I was pretty impressed that once they began to understand — and I just want our listeners to understand, as Derek and I joined the Humanitarian Bridges team, which included a social worker, translators, and an attorney from Safe Passage, another partner organization in Greece — we were very aware that our audience would be men who were reticent about identifying themselves as victims, for whatever reason.

[00:10:59] But we determined, as a Global Center team, that Derek’s expertise in labor trafficking — and being the kind of man talking to other men — would be a better avenue for creating better communication. And I stood back and watched as the men gathered. It was very intriguing to watch how intently they paid attention, and how they began to relax a little bit — not exactly relax, but maybe let down the barriers to communication.

[00:11:50] And when you were done, the attorney and the social workers could not hardly get a word in edgewise, because they were so transparent — they were explaining so many of their experiences. And what was your response when you realized that their exploitation isn’t over?

[00:12:16] Derek Marsh: I was stunned, because I figured once they had gotten to the country — even if they weren’t monitored more closely — they would have recourse to report to people that these events were occurring. But as you spoke about earlier, men are reticent to talk about labor trafficking, especially because it wasn’t force that was being used.

[00:12:40] They’re being coerced, they’re being exploited, but it was more indirect. It was more, “Hey, you either make no money or you make three euros an hour or something” — which is, of course, way underpaid, but at least they were making something. So this was more the type of labor trafficking I’d experienced before. But I was even more surprised that they disclosed it was happening so close to the refugee camp — that somehow some local traffickers or exploiters had already figured out where the camp was, what the scam was gonna be, how they were going to implement it, and that almost across the board, all of these young men had been exploited in a very similar fashion.

[00:13:23] Sandie Morgan: And I think that because it was so much better than the very violent experience they had on their journey escaping the Sudanese war, they had sort of just accepted that labor exploitation was part of their new reality. And they seemed surprised that there were remedies available to them.

[00:13:51] Derek Marsh: Yeah, I know they’ve been talked to about it before. And again, this isn’t on the Greek government, this isn’t on the NGOs before us that have worked with them. I don’t know if they heard it, or didn’t believe it, or tried to access it and — because of delays and the rotating number of people who go through — they weren’t getting a consistent response.

[00:14:15] They seemed — beaten down is the wrong term, but mentally kind of fatigued about it. They were like, “Okay, well, this is just par for the course. Luckily, we’re not being physically hurt anymore. That’s the good news.” But again, here these people are taking advantage of us and our situations, and in their minds they had kind of walked away from thinking they had any immediate remedy to their issues. So that was depressing.

[00:14:46] Sandie Morgan: And to your point about the Greek government, the increased level of identification of labor trafficking victims has contributed significantly to the higher numbers in their annual report. EKKA, their social services, produced the latest report, which had 891 identified victims — and any task force in the US would be proud of a number like that.

[00:15:20] And let’s remember, Greece is a country of under 11 million citizens, and they’re also on the front line of receiving literally boatloads of vulnerable people escaping violent circumstances. So the identification and the services being provided are pretty admirable.

[00:15:48] Derek Marsh: I agree. They have a lot to balance. When we talked to Dr. Heracles in the past, he’s like, “Well, we have to prioritize saving lives before we can get into investigating criminal activity.” And I appreciate that. They literally have people washing up on their islands who are near death or dead, and that’s horrific.

[00:16:08] So of course they’ve chosen the path of keeping those people alive as much as they can, and trying to discourage that type of behavior — but it keeps happening over and over again. So I know a lot of their attention and funding has gone towards basically keeping people alive, having a place for them when they arrive, the basic medical issues, and the basic processing they need.

[00:16:32] So I’m happy to see they have enough bandwidth now, if you will — both financial and policy-wise — to address labor trafficking and sex trafficking. Obviously, sex trafficking, being in some ways more egregious on the face of it, and much more popular and easier to identify, makes it easier to pursue.

[00:16:54] But labor trafficking victims and survivors being identified is a huge plus — it shows that it’s happening. Because you and I both know it’s not that it’s not there; it’s that you’re not looking for it, or you’re not pursuing it actively, or you’re not asking the right questions.

[00:17:11] So once you find the places to look for it, get the questions you need to ask squared away, and let people know it’s okay to disclose that information — like we did with these young men who were there — then all of a sudden the floodgates seem to open up much more quickly. They were sharing the type of exploitation not only that they’d had going through Libya or other countries on their trek to Greece, but also literally within the local neighborhood, where they were looking for odd jobs, working in markets, things like that.

[00:17:43] So after we finished at the Kyllini camp, we drove to the area where there is a single moms refugee camp near the village or town of Pyrgos on the Peloponnese. And at that particular camp, all of the residents are mothers with children, and they have either been identified as trafficking victims or domestic violence, or are leaving a violent situation.

[00:18:25] Sandie Morgan: There were women who participated in the seminar we had who were from Sudan, Iran, Syria, Sierra Leone, and a few other countries, mostly on the continent of Africa. And I was very impressed with how excited they were to be out of the camp for a day. We planned our event to be a very positive opportunity — almost like a retreat for the women.

[00:19:07] And our students stepped up, became the hosts, offered welcome gifts and activities along the lines of art therapy. They also provided childcare. When the women first arrived, the students and I were very eager to greet them, but the first thing they wanted to do was go sit down.

[00:19:38] And I later learned that they had not had transportation from the camp to the site, but had walked 45 minutes carrying their children. So that was another lesson for me to think about if we do another event like this. But did you have any first impressions of the arrival of the women that day?

[00:20:08] Derek Marsh: It reminded me of the movies when we were younger — when you say you’re gonna have a party, and then all of a sudden everyone shows up exactly at the right time. It was time to start. Oh, Greek time is always different, so that’s cool. But we were on the clock, and we were like, “There’s no one here.

[00:20:28] What happened?” And five minutes later, they just came in as a group. And I just thought, this is so typical — because they were together and walking together, and we hadn’t anticipated their need for travel support, when they walked in they just plopped down. I’m like, “Wow.”

[00:20:45] And then we went from zero to 100 in a moment. Even despite the walk, they were always smiling and laughing with each other, and they had a good rapport. And they seemed open to us almost from the very start, which I thought was great.

[00:21:02] Sandie Morgan: It was such a wonderful day for me personally, because I’ve been dreaming about it and working with our partners, and the best part of the whole program was how collaborative it was. There was a representative from General Secretary Moskoff’s office for vulnerable people. She came, she engaged, she talked to the residents and gave a presentation.

[00:21:34] Again, we had Sandy — also, but spelled with a Y — who is the Safe Passage attorney. I’m never going anywhere without her; she has the answers to the questions. She was with us. There were partners from Humanitarian Bridges, social workers, and administrative staff. And the coordinator, Voula Champeridou, the executive director for Humanitarian Bridges, had thought of everything.

[00:22:11] We made sure there were snacks for the break time. There was sound so that everybody could hear, and the program was designed to provide resources and information, because once you know what’s available, you can ask better questions. But at the same time, we did not want to just focus on their challenges.

[00:22:42] We wanted to offer encouragement. And so I was particularly excited about the assignment Derek and I had from a few years ago, when our team went and we were working just with refugee women in Athens. We had done a presentation on building resilience for your children, and resilience is an amazing thing to see, to watch.

[00:23:13] And so our contribution, besides bringing students to volunteer and provide free childcare, was to offer moms some insight on positive ways to build resilience for their kids. And for me personally, watching as they actually looked at Professor Marsh a little quizzically, like, “Why is a man here?”

[00:23:43] And then watching their expressions change as they saw more of a father figure. And I don’t know, Derek, how you perceived that — but that opportunity to work with the women in this way, these moms who are living in very challenging circumstances, that felt like a gift for me.

[00:24:12] Derek Marsh: Well, I know that. Historically, when we’ve dealt with women refugees — especially women with children — their exposure to men has never been predominantly positive. There’s always a story of domestic violence, of exploitation, of being married too young or being forced to marry.

[00:24:33] I almost feel like I can plug in a response and just see what’s going to happen — and I don’t wanna be like that, but it just seems that’s the predominant experience these women have had. So the opportunity to talk to them about resilience, and more positive aspects than trying to take advantage of them or fitting into whatever stereotype they had in their mind, was a great opportunity for us to be able to present.

[00:25:01] I think that’s our strength in the long run, ’cause as you know, this field is predominantly female-occupied. As a man, you always feel like you have one more hurdle to establish credibility when it comes to empathy or understanding. So it’s nice when — whatever that hurdle is, depending on the group we’re speaking with — it’s been met. And I think that resilience talk we gave, about how to build resilience, not in themselves—

[00:25:35] We don’t wanna mansplain how to survive to women — but to help them understand, as a pair, how to help their children survive, I think is a much better approach. Because obviously, their children are dear to them, and they don’t want them to suffer through what they’ve had to suffer through.

[00:25:54] So whatever they can do to prepare them in this world, I think, is a positive — no matter how you slice it.

[00:26:01] Sandie Morgan: And the service hearts of our students, caring for these babies — some of them just months old — the ladies were there nearly four hours, and our students were holding babies, taking three-year-olds out on the little lawn playground, buying balls for them to play with, all of those kinds of things.

[00:26:33] I think one of the students shared an experience that really caught my attention. She was caring for a three-year-old, and there was a little playschool-type slide, and he loved going up and down, hanging onto her hand and then running. I think she was getting a better workout than the gym, for sure.

[00:27:01] And then all of a sudden, a plane flew overhead, and he stopped. He ran to the building with his hands over his ears, and she went into nurturing mode immediately: “It’s okay. It’s okay. I’m here.” And she saw firsthand the trauma that a child escaping a war zone experiences — and how being safe is not enough.

[00:27:38] Remembering and building that resilience is going to be the key to a healthy future for that three-year-old.

[00:27:47] Derek Marsh: And what a tragic commentary, that you have a three-year-old recognizing the sound of a plane, the visual of a plane, and the idea that the plane is not a safe object. We see planes all day long; they’re flying all over the skies. I don’t think twice about them. But to have that kind of awakening — to see this young boy, he’s three years old, just immediately respond with a safety, duck-and-cover response — is horrific.

[00:28:19] I’m laughing about it, but it’s just horrific that that’s what they’ve had to go through to survive. And like you said, it shows that these are the issues they’re going to have to address from day one. The sooner they address it, the better chance that child has of working through that trauma.

[00:28:38] And that doesn’t even talk about — that’s just, I think, the tip of the iceberg of what the mother had to go through to get here, to be in that environment. Also, I wanted to comment on the childcare. We’ve had events where we always know we need to feed people to entice them to the event and get more people to show up.

[00:28:57] And we did feed people there, and I think that was a great thing to do — they enjoyed it tremendously. But I thought, because they were young mothers, having the childcare was brilliant, because those women visibly relaxed when the children were not there. They could interact as adults. They weren’t in nurturing mode.

[00:29:14] They could think more logically and understand what was going on, and participate more effectively than if they were constantly trying to keep a toddler preoccupied and not interrupting the group as a whole. So that whole dynamic of being distracted was eliminated, because we did have the childcare available.

[00:29:39] And I think our students did step up and do a great job, but I think that was brilliant on your part, and Voula’s part, and everyone else’s part — to have that be part of the program.

[00:29:49] Sandie Morgan: I actually have been thinking about how I can do that right where I live. Because I know we have some refugee communities in our own county, in the state of California. How do I become part of that same kind of generosity — with my time and compassion — that actually has legs? For listeners who may never visit a refugee camp themselves, are there one or two lessons from our experience in Greece that might help them better understand trafficking or participate in prevention in refugee communities?

[00:30:39] Derek Marsh: I think the biggest issue is going there and not pretending you understand where they’re coming from. Because it seems that with every community or group of people we spoke to — again, we’ve only been to one actual location on our trip so far, and I’ve been there five times—

[00:30:56] So it’s the first time we actually got to walk in the gate, which is great. I hope we can do that again in the future. But historically, what we’ve done is met people at Bridges or at other neutral locations. So I feel that understanding the environment where they live is critical, because you think, “Well, refugee camp — they’re probably getting three rounds a day.

[00:31:24] They’re getting food every day. They’re doing whatever. They’re living pretty well.” They’re not living high on the hog by any means, but they’re doing okay. And I can tell you that their environment, while livable, was by no means generous, if that makes sense.

[00:31:43] They were in a resort that had not been occupied for several years — probably decades — and so the upkeep wasn’t the greatest. It was passable for people, I’m not saying anything different, but it just was a different environment than I had envisioned, having never been there before. Also, again, there’s a transportation problem.

[00:32:04] They aren’t just able to jump on a bus and get into town in a couple of minutes. If they wanted to go to town, if they wanted to work, they had to get on a bike, or they had to walk ten, 15, 20, 30, 45 minutes to get where they needed to go — to even arrive and be available for work.

[00:32:25] So I thought that was something that was important too. And then, I think, the final thing that hit me was just the amount of idle time they have. Even though they’re trying to get through the process, push through the paperwork, and meet with the people they need to meet with, there’s just a lot of downtime.

[00:32:44] There’s just a lot of downtime. And I know I get bored after five minutes — I’m twiddling my thumbs, I’m acting like a clown, you know me. So I just can’t imagine having that amount of downtime without resources to occupy myself. These folks were kicking plastic balls — and these were adults — and that was what’s preoccupying them.

[00:33:05] Which is the reality of it, and I appreciate it — we can’t entertain everybody. But there has to be a way to keep that downtime to a minimum and have people interact with them more — again, where they’re at, and not where we think they’re at or where they should be. We need to start with where they’re at and then move from there in a direction that benefits both them and—

[00:33:30] —mostly benefits them, and moves them towards the goal they have of being integrated into society.

[00:33:36] Sandie Morgan: I agree. And for me personally, I want to not just think about the next time I go to Greece and recruit students, but to think about: how do I take the lessons learned and integrate them right here in my own backyard? How do I find out what’s going on, and what the kinds of support that will make a difference in their future look like?

[00:34:11] And we can all do something. Remember our pithari image — the big Greek jar with handles all over it. And as we wrap up this conversation, I just wanna challenge our Ending Human Trafficking community to look for the handle close to you, so that you can help. Because it is overwhelming how huge the issues are, and how desperate many people have found themselves in circumstances beyond their control — and we can do something.

[00:34:49] Derek Marsh: I agree. And I think, understanding context too — the Sudanese have been in conflict for decades now. This isn’t something that just happened overnight, so they’ve had to approach and deal with that pretty consistently. I apologize ahead of time for my orange cat, who’s decided he’s the main player today.

[00:35:08] The idea that we can help them locally as well as internationally, I think, is something we need to really appreciate. Without understanding that, I think we’re missing out on what’s really going on and how we can help. And I think the other side, too, is that a lot of the Greek people aren’t happy about the refugees and asylum seekers there.

[00:35:38] They feel that they’re taking resources that could be better used in other places. And I think we have some of that same kind of latent animosity here in the US. But that doesn’t change the fact that a lot of these folks don’t wanna be here — they would rather be home. And what we can do to help in their transition is much more than just trying to immediately turn them into mini-US citizens. ‘Cause I think that, while an admirable goal — if they were just immigrating, I would say, “Yeah, let’s go that way.”

[00:36:10] We’re talking asylum seekers, we’re talking refugees, and their mindset is much different. I think we need a better understanding of that mindset, and how we can approach them so that we can meet in the middle — where they can be here, be productive, and find personal fulfillment while still participating actively in our community, but still understanding that in the end, they would really prefer to go home than to be wandering different countries, being exploited, going through all the paperwork and the delays and the challenges in different countries. We have to balance that need for them. And I think that until you work with them, until you’ve talked with them — and again, we were very peripherally involved, though we’ve done this five different times, we always meet different groups of people, right? — I think, to speak to the best of it, people like Bridges and A21, people who are providing more continuity and care with the government, those people are to be really praised, and need to be maintained and supported, to make sure these transitions are more easily managed and less traumatically involved with the folks they’re working with.

[00:37:34] Sandie Morgan: Thank you, Professor Marsh. And if you have not listened to the interview with General Secretary Heracles Moskoff a few episodes back, we’ll put a link in the show notes so you can find it easily. This is an issue that is global, and we just gave you a snapshot of our experience — I hope it encourages you to learn more, to study the issue, so you can be a voice and make a difference.

[00:38:10] Thanks for joining us.

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[00:38:13] Elisha: Thank you to Derek Marsh for helping us understand how refugees can remain vulnerable to exploitation even after reaching a place of safety, and why listening first matters so much. Listeners, if you enjoyed this conversation, make sure to check out our website at endinghumantrafficking.org for tons of in-depth show notes and other resources.

[00:38:33] If you’d love to help us grow this podcast, you can start by sharing this episode with someone and connecting with us on Facebook, Instagram, or LinkedIn. And as always, thank you for listening.

[00:38:43]