371: Why Strong Trafficking Laws Still Miss Real Victims

Dr. Heracles Moskoff joins Dr. Sandie Morgan to explore what happens after a country builds the laws, shelters, and partnerships meant to protect people — and why outcomes still depend on whether someone, somewhere, recognizes what others overlook.

Dr. Heracles Moskoff

Dr. Heracles Moskoff serves as Secretary General for Vulnerable Persons and Institutional Protection at Greece”’s Ministry of Migration and Asylum, a role he assumed in July 2023. He previously served as Special Secretary for the Protection of Unaccompanied Minors (2021–2023), overseeing the implementation of Greece”’s National Guardianship System and frameworks for the accommodation and protection of unaccompanied children. With over two decades of experience in migration policy, human security, and anti-trafficking efforts, Dr. Moskoff has held roles within Greece”’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs since 2001, including as Expert Counselor on Human Security. In 2013, he was appointed National Rapporteur on Combating Trafficking in Human Beings, coordinating Greece”’s National Referral Mechanism and National Action Plan (2018–2022). He represents Greece at the EU, United Nations, Council of Europe, and OSCE. He holds a PhD in Sociology from the London School of Economics.

Key Points

Most countries have robust anti-trafficking legal frameworks, but the real gap is “national ownership” — the capacity of frontline professionals to recognize indicators when victims do not self-identify.
Faith communities and faith-based NGOs are essential partners because they reach both potential victims and the demand side at an existential level that law enforcement cannot.
Greece”’s National Emergency Response Mechanism — a 24/7 hotline with mobile units — has helped recover more than 10,000 unaccompanied children over the last five years.
A culture of impunity persists worldwide: only a small percentage of victims are identified and only a small percentage of perpetrators face justice; the identification chain has to extend beyond police to medical, migration, and public administration professionals.
Trafficking is not only the textbook case — the “gray area” of dirty, difficult, dangerous informal work for unaccompanied minors is its own form of exploitation, often tolerated by enforcement.
Consumer demand and corporate supply chains require regulation with real teeth; well-intentioned laws like the California Transparency in Supply Chains Act remain under-enforced, and Greece faces the same gap.
A new presidential decree authorizes new departments dedicated to anti-trafficking and gender-based violence, including planned shelters for male victims and victims of forced labor.
Survivors of forced criminality carry trauma alongside extraordinary resilience; with proper mental health support, integration can produce what Dr. Moskoff calls “a miracle of integration.”

Resources

Transcript

[00:00:00] Heracles Moskoff: These people are survivors of something that was very traumatic, but they also have a package of resilience that, if treated in a proper way, can produce a miracle of integration. It reminds me of stories from our grandparents or before that, who said, “We left this village from mountainous Greece, and we were barefoot, and we didn’t have to eat, and now we are heart surgeons

[00:00:27] or whatever.”

[00:00:34] Elisha: Across Greece, systems are working to fight trafficking, but the outcome still depends on whether someone, somewhere recognizes what others overlook. This episode asks what happens after a country builds the laws, shelters, referral mechanisms, and partnerships meant to protect people. Because even strong systems can fall short if victims aren’t identified, professionals aren’t trained, or communities don’t know how to respond.

[00:00:58] Hi, I’m Elisha. I’m a student here at Vanguard University. Today, Sandie talks with Dr. Heracles Moskoff, Secretary General for Vulnerable Persons and Institutional Protection at Greece’s Ministry of Migration and Asylum. His work focuses on migration policy, vulnerable populations, and anti-trafficking systems.

[00:01:17] And now, here’s their conversation.

[00:01:21] Sandie Morgan: Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast. Dr. Heracles Moskoff currently serves as Secretary General for Vulnerable Persons and Institutional Protection at Greece’s Ministry of Migration and Asylum.

[00:01:41] Welcome, my friend.

[00:01:43] Heracles Moskoff: It’s a pleasure, Dr. Sandie Morgan, to be with you and share with you. We know each other quite a few years, and we have been sharing the same outlook in terms of how to combat trafficking, and I’m glad to address your audience, your students. It’s a pleasure.

[00:02:03] Sandie Morgan: Oh, thank you so much. And I remember I met you in Istanbul, Constantinopoli the first time,

[00:02:13] Heracles Moskoff: Mm-hmm.

[00:02:13] Sandie Morgan: we were at the first forum that the Ecumenical Patriarch hosted on human trafficking. And I understand you recently hosted a forum in Athens?

[00:02:27] Heracles Moskoff: Yes, of course. Our duty is to try to engage unusual partners in terms of how we try to fulfill the political and legal commitments that we have to combat human trafficking. Our partnership with the church

[00:02:51] and with faith-based NGOs is very, very important for us. On the one hand, they enjoy a big acceptance from the general public.

[00:03:01] And people of faith are also very good in inspiring both potential victims and also the demand side—the potential clients or even, I’m afraid, perpetrators of the crime—to think about it and to realize what is the real,

[00:03:25] Sandie Morgan: That—

[00:03:29] Heracles Moskoff: One of the biggest problems in tackling trafficking is not just law enforcement or judiciary. It is the fact that we still treat this phenomenon not as a crime or as a violation of human rights, but as something that is, I would say, normal. This kind of normalization is something that we have to address with all the tools that we have. And the church is very important. The people of faith are very important because they can appeal to the existential and the spiritual part of ourselves, which is something that we usually don’t think about.

[00:04:15] And I believe a lot in this kind of partnership.

[00:04:19] Sandie Morgan: Very much, and I think it’s why our partnership keeps going from year to year and opportunity to opportunity. Now, you were the human trafficking rapporteur at one point, and as that has changed over the years, how do you see the response in Greece to human trafficking?

[00:04:49] Heracles Moskoff: Well, I must say that it’s now 25 years since we’ve started, not just in Greece, but internationally. It started with the UN Convention against Organized Crime, then all the big international organizations joined in. More or less, most of our countries have a quite robust legal framework to address this issue. But unfortunately, the problem lies with the national ownership—how much we understand, and the ability of our frontline professionals to really understand the indicators of a victim, how to rescue a victim, because usually victims are not self-identifying. They don’t come forward and say, “I’m a victim.

[00:05:36] Rescue me. Save me.” So it’s very important for all the frontline professionals to know more, to be part of the rescue chain. And this is not easy. So I would say that even though we have the political and legal commitments, we have the tools, we have the political will more or less, generally speaking, we need to work more, as I said before, with faith-based organizations.

[00:06:10] The same is true obviously with education, the schools. It’s very important to make people familiar with the terms, with the reality of what a victim is, of what a vulnerable person is, even what a refugee is. Unfortunately, our societies are increasingly suspicious towards people who are not natives. So we are missing out, losing a lot of cases that could be rescued because of stereotypes and because of misconceptions about the reality of certain people. So we need all the frontline professionals—the social workers, the judiciary, the law enforcement, but also the human security people—to have a role in identifying potential victims of trafficking. And if you have a victim that enjoys rights and some support, legal aid, administrative aid, some prospect of a second chance in their lives, then you will have better results also in bringing the perpetrators to justice, because you will have the testimonies that you need, the witness protection that you need to have a successful court case.

[00:07:44] Because unfortunately, what we are witnessing right now, not just in Greece, but throughout the world, is a culture of impunity, which means that only a very small percentage of people are rescued, and by the same token, only a very small percentage of perpetrators are brought to justice. So in order to tackle that, you need to open up.

[00:08:06] You need to bring more professionals who can identify victims, which means not just the police or the prosecutors, but people that work in the medical sector, people that work in the migration sector, people that work in public administration—whoever comes across the potential victims who are suffering in silence and can be assisted. So this is very important.

[00:08:30] Sandie Morgan: Wow. That was a lot to unpack. And I’m curious now, in your role as General Secretary of Vulnerable People, tell me how that overlaps and how you can integrate those systems with the response to human trafficking.

[00:08:54] Heracles Moskoff: Well, in Greece we have this specialization, because we were at the center of a very big arrival flow from various countries—people who were fleeing from war—at least 10, 15 years ago. So we had to adjust, and we had to develop systems for their reception, for their asylum, for their integration. So we have a dedicated ministry, which is the Ministry of Migration and Asylum, and we have a dedicated secretariat that started dealing exclusively with children, with unaccompanied children. We had about 5,000, let’s say, 10 years ago, and we didn’t have a proper response at that time. So our state, along with the civil society and the international organizations, formed a coalition—a public-private partnership—which provided both more accommodations, places for the children, and also some institutional support, some support in their education, their smooth transition to adulthood. I’ll give you just one example: the National Emergency Response Mechanism, which is a 24/7 rescue hotline. We respond within the day with mobile units, and we identify kids in precarious conditions and homelessness. So all this, as you understand, was exactly what the traffickers needed to exploit children and to recruit them, not just in exploitation that has to do with sexual exploitation, but also in other anecdotal or less evident typologies of trafficking, like forced criminality, which is another big issue. So we have rescued more than 10,000 children over the last five years through this mechanism. This mechanism responds, and then within the day we safely accommodate these children, and then we have several professionals who are working with them in small cells of 20, 30 children. And we care for their registration to schools, for their formal and informal education, soft skills, vocational training if they are 16 plus and they want to work. But of course, the problem is that they don’t have a legal status, so they’re asylum seekers. We cannot give asylum to everybody.

[00:11:41] We should not give asylum to everybody, because there is a distinction between the safe countries and the countries that are plagued by war and persecution. So this is a kind of dichotomy that we have, which makes our services confined to particular people and not everybody.

[00:12:07] Sandie Morgan: So I happened to be there last year when a 15-year-old was recovered, and the whole system was alerted. He was provided for, and there was a sense of the systems are working. And I’m curious if other countries nearby have adopted similar practices. Are there any transnational partnerships? When you’re talking especially about underage migrants who are not eligible for asylum, how is the European community helping absorb those kids into their programs?

[00:12:59] Heracles Moskoff: Well, in theory, if they’re children, if they’re minors, they are protected. So our protection net lasts until they become 18. They will receive an asylum status, and we will go on with their integration. In other countries, they don’t have the same dedication because they don’t have the same problem.

[00:13:25] Greece is one of the countries that receives a lot of arrivals. So we have a dedicated system, and we have a lot of support both from the European Commission and from other countries like Switzerland or Norway that act as partners in our projects. Because our projects, unfortunately, are expensive ones—think about a shelter with 20, 30 people.

[00:13:47] We have a 24/7 presence of frontline professionals, and not just caretakers, but also social workers, psychologists, legal support, education. So it’s an expensive project. A lot of countries are learning from that. Even the UN has paid attention to our projects, and we also have other flagship projects like the mentorship one, which is former unaccompanied children who are now acting as our ambassadors.

[00:14:28] It’s actually next door here. We have an office with colleagues who used to be unaccompanied children, and they participated in education. They attended and/or graduated from university, and now they are in their mid-20s or 30s, and they are working with us as cultural mediators and as ambassadors of our message.

[00:14:56] Because one of the problems that we have, which is also close to trafficking, is the so-called abscondment. A lot of kids are fleeing from our system. They’re dropping out from schools. They are leaving our premises, and a lot of the times this happens because they have a distorted view about what is their best interest, which is to sell drugs or cigarettes or to engage in petty crime. So this is something that we have to address. Or also to work illegally, because this is another problem that we have here: a lot of people, especially children, are working in the sort of black market, informally, which is easy money for them, but you don’t know exactly the circumstances—whether this is a dignified thing. That’s why we want to work with their guardians, which is another project that we have. We have designated guardians who are responsible for the children’s representation, for their best interest. So they act both for the legal issues, the administrative issues, but also for their integration. We work with them to try to provide a transition to adulthood, which includes some soft skills, some vocational training, and some real project of getting a job once they become 17 or 18, which is legal. That is a regular job, not something that is dirty, difficult, dangerous. So in terms of trafficking, we also have to take into account that it’s not just the textbook case of a victim of trafficking, but it’s also the gray area—all these sort of dirty, difficult, dangerous things that they do, and they don’t enjoy rights there. But also from a point of view of law enforcement, it’s not exactly flagging a case that you should have a reaction.

[00:16:52] So there is some tolerance there, and this is why exactly we should also try to address the awareness-raising issue. Because for example, the private sector—whether the private sector can tolerate supply chains and procurements that are coming from services or goods that are produced by people who are not enjoying their full package of rights—because this might end up in a supermarket as a cheap product,

[00:17:21] but we should also know what is this supply chain and how we can impose some regulation there. It exists, but it needs more enforcement there. And I would say more awareness on the part of the consumer as well, of the society.

[00:17:42] Because usually we just focus on what the regulatory bodies can do, but we should also talk about the ordinary consumer, the demand side, as we say in anti-trafficking.

[00:17:56] Sandie Morgan: This is music to my ears, because our students have been very proactive in educating our community on the role of consumer demand, particularly in fast fashion that drives labor trafficking in countries not far from the borders of Greece. And when we see that our personal choices can change somebody else’s circumstances, there does seem to be the moral obligation to do something.

[00:18:33] So I’m encouraged by that. Here in California, we passed the Supply Chain Transparency Act in 2010, but it doesn’t have teeth. And so it’s well-intentioned,

[00:18:51] Heracles Moskoff: Yes.

[00:18:51] Sandie Morgan: but now we need to operationalize those intentions. How does that work in Greece? It sounds like the intentions mirror exactly what I’m living here, but I get frustrated because I can’t really find a solid response more than encouraging people, “Don’t purchase products made by slave labor.”

[00:19:22] Heracles Moskoff: I’m afraid that not just in Greece or the US or in California, but generally, we could do much more, and we could receive much more support from the corporate social responsibility area, the due diligence area, as well as from the authorities, and last but not least, from the consumer consciousness—from the people who are on the demand side. I think we have a lot of progress there to do.

[00:20:00] I’m not satisfied with the level of awareness that exists in that. I’m afraid people are always going for the cheap. They will—

[00:20:12] Sandie Morgan: That’s human nature. We want the most we can get.

[00:20:15] Heracles Moskoff: But coming from social sciences, we are hoping at least that human nature would be a little bit more sensitive towards human nature. Because after all, what we are protecting is dignity and nature.

[00:20:35] Sandie Morgan: That’s absolutely— And I align very closely with your opening remarks about public-private partnerships, and particularly in the faith community, where human dignity is a key facet of our approach. So we talked briefly about asylum, and there’s been an influx of Sudanese refugees.

[00:21:08] I think I have two questions. One: Greece continues to absorb asylum seekers who are worthy seekers of asylum, but like a sponge that has absorbed too much—how will the EU, and surrounding maybe corporate, faith-based, how will we become partners for the lack of resources to serve those very challenged populations, very vulnerable people?

[00:21:51] Heracles Moskoff: Again, this is something that, even though it deserves our full attention, I’m not satisfied with how—I don’t want to talk exclusively about politics, but about our values as society, especially the Western paradigm that is based on the Enlightenment. I’m afraid that there is a recession in terms of the value of human beings and dignity, and we witness that also in several countries. And the focus,

[00:22:26] Sandie Morgan: The—

[00:22:30] Heracles Moskoff: in America, elsewhere, we are obviously concerned about the security of our borders. Okay. I’m not disregarding that.

[00:22:41] I think that we should be. But at the same time, we should have a balanced approach. We should focus on the law enforcement imperative, on border security, but also on human security. Whether we can combine that and provide a balanced view on that, this is difficult, but this is how our legal and political culture is still framed.

[00:23:06] We have obligations, we have responsibilities, and we have to uphold them. Now in Europe, we have the new pact on migration and asylum. It’s a new legal framework, and there are safeguards there for the protection of children, for example, for special reception needs for the vulnerables—for example, victims of trafficking.

[00:23:30] And now, in terms of trafficking, our secretariat has a new presidential decree, which means an official authorization about opening new departments, and one of them is exclusively dealing with anti-trafficking and also gender-based violence. So hopefully, within this framework, we will operate more projects like shelters for victims of trafficking.

[00:23:53] We used to have them. Now, for a couple of years, we don’t have. And now, through this new department and new funding that will come from the European pact, as I said, it is planned that we will open three shelters also for male victims, for forced labor, which is another case. It’s difficult though, because as you understand, our societies are not very supportive about that. The opinion polls and the public opinion, the conventional wisdom, is treating these people as a threat. And I’m not saying that there are no dangers with that, of course, but if we have a good integration system for the ones who deserve asylum, it is not a secret that, from time immemorial, migration was a driving force of history, and this is exactly how the demographics work.

[00:25:03] The States, first and foremost, is a good example of that. But of course, for that to happen and work, you need to comply with law and order,

[00:25:15] Sandie Morgan: Yeah.

[00:25:16] Heracles Moskoff: with the local values, and this creates a lot of friction, which we all know about.

[00:25:23] Sandie Morgan: Absolutely. And I know in my circles, all of my friends can trace back their history to a great-great-great-grandfather from France or Germany or the UK, and it goes the same the world over. So your big history perspective is a well-taken point, and as I speak with my students, I’ll remind them of that as well.

[00:25:58] So last question here. As we approach the incredible and exponential growth of forced criminality—you mentioned that—how can we protect the most vulnerable people? And you also mentioned gender-based violence, and that particular vulnerable people group is definitely a part of my perspective here at the Global Center for Women and Justice.

[00:26:35] And so protections—what are your hopes, your vision, your focus on change in the coming decade?

[00:26:48] Heracles Moskoff: Well, again, it’s very important that whatever we do works against the backdrop that there is acceptance and support from our constituents—the people who are surrounding us. Especially in

[00:27:02] Sandie Morgan: Hmm.

[00:27:06] Heracles Moskoff: an NGO, I would be much more comfortable with advocacy.

[00:27:13] But of course, having a political position, you always have to balance what you say, because after all, you represent a state, the country, not just yourself. So it’s important that whatever we say, me and you, is shared by more and more people. This is the first thing.

[00:27:34] The other thing, which is connected to how much legitimacy we enjoy, is how much we are able to attract resources, both human and financial resources, for what we do. Once we do that, we have achieved a lot, because we will somehow make sure that whatever is written on paper, on laws, is being brought closer to the ones who have the mandate to implement it. Because issues that have to do with gender-based violence or protection of exploitation or other issues are complicated. So we need expertise from professionals, and we need recipients who are ready to hear, listen, and learn from that—for example, students or professionals in anti-trafficking. When we say we want to engage unusual partners, we mentioned the faith-based element. We are also including the private sector. We are also including transport. Think of how many victims or potential victims are traveling around the world, and there’s no flag of alert for cases like that, because either we don’t care or we don’t know how to respond. Is it to pick up the phone and call the police or a helpline? How to empower a person who is in a position of victimization? A lot of it has to do obviously with the rights culture—for example, the Me Too culture in terms of violence against women. But I would say that this again needs a balanced approach, because when it comes to gender equality, I understand that the male population is also very frustrated, and this should also be part of the solution. It’s not just empowering women, but also empowering men to understand what we mean, and empowering couples, because after all, most of the violence comes within couples, or part of it. And then there are mental health issues. Again, there is a stereotype about mental health. If it was up to me, I would make it obligatory in schools, for example, like emotional intelligence, like reproductive health education.

[00:30:26] There are several things that in my country—perhaps in America it’s not that much of a problem, but here you need to break stereotypes. For example, what it means to go to a group therapy or to do psychotherapy or to understand more about your role. For example, you mentioned forced criminality. The mental health approach towards that is that these people are survivors of something that was very traumatic, but they also have a package of resilience that, if treated in a proper way, can produce a miracle of integration. It reminds me of stories from our grandparents or before that, that they said, “We left this village from mountainous Greece, and we were barefoot, and we didn’t have to eat, and now we are heart surgeons or whatever,”

[00:31:26] Sandie Morgan: Yeah.

[00:31:27] Heracles Moskoff: 50 years after.

[00:31:27] And the American dream is full of examples from that.

[00:31:32] Sandie Morgan: I agree completely, and I’ve worked with a lot of survivors,

[00:31:38] Heracles Moskoff: Yeah.

[00:31:38] Sandie Morgan: the quality that I have admired the most is resilience.

[00:31:44] Heracles Moskoff: Exactly.

[00:31:47] Sandie Morgan: They blame the victim,

[00:31:49] Heracles Moskoff: Yeah.

[00:31:50] Sandie Morgan: they see the resilience as combative or whatever. So resilience—that’s a great note to close our conversation on, and to continue our conversation when my students are in Greece in the next few weeks.

[00:32:08] Heracles Moskoff: Sure.

[00:32:10] Sandie Morgan: Mentoring the next generation is inspiring. I’d love to meet the cultural mediators that you are mentoring next door.

[00:32:23] Heracles Moskoff: Yeah.

[00:32:24] Sandie Morgan: This is encouraging, and I am so grateful for the work that you’re doing, and I look forward to partnering again.

[00:32:33] Heracles Moskoff: It’s a real pleasure, Dr. Morgan. We look forward to welcoming you back in Greece, and working together hand in hand.

[00:32:44] Sandie Morgan: I think we should have another faith-based forum in Athens, and we’ll help organize. So thank you so much, Mr. Secretary.

[00:32:55] Heracles Moskoff: Thank you. Bye-bye.

[00:32:58] Elisha: Thank you to Dr. Heracles Moskoff for showing how Greece’s response to trafficking connects policy with practical protection. Listeners, if you loved this conversation, make sure you check out our website at endinghumantrafficking.org for tons of in-depth show notes and other resources.

[00:33:12] If you’d love to help us grow this podcast, you can start by sharing this episode with someone and connecting with us on Facebook, Instagram, or LinkedIn. And as always, thank you for listening.