341 – Following the Money: How Financial Crime Investigations Disrupt Human Trafficking

David Tyree joins Dr. Sandie Morgan as the two discuss how financial crime investigations can disrupt human trafficking by following the money trail and identifying the financial networks that support trafficking operations.

David Tyree

David Tyree has over 25 years of experience as a DEA Agent and financial crime investigator. He has led major investigations into money laundering and drug trafficking and is a recognized expert in financial crime investigations. He trains law enforcement officers on detecting money laundering and asset forfeiture. Recently, he participated in the Follow the Money Roundtable with Valid8 at Vanguard University.

Key Points

Financial investigations provide a new way to combat human trafficking by identifying and disrupting illicit financial networks.
Traffickers exploit financial tools like Venmo, Cash App, and Zelle to move money, making it critical for law enforcement to track these transactions.
Financial crime investigations allow law enforcement to build strong cases that do not rely solely on victim testimony, reducing re-traumatization.
Traffickers often control victims financially, making it difficult for them to escape without outside intervention.
Asset forfeiture is a powerful tool that law enforcement can use to take away traffickers’ financial resources and prevent them from reconstituting their operations.
Banks and financial institutions play a crucial role in identifying suspicious activity, such as rapid money transfers, and working with law enforcement to stop trafficking networks.
Understanding financial literacy is key to preventing individuals from becoming vulnerable to trafficking and exploitation.
Law enforcement needs to build trust with victims by offering support rather than immediately pressuring them to testify.
Successful investigations require collaboration between financial institutions, law enforcement, and victim service organizations.
The ability to follow the money provides a tangible way to prosecute traffickers and provide financial restitution to victims.
Financial restitution is often the most meaningful form of justice for survivors, as it helps them rebuild their lives.
Educating financial institutions and law enforcement about trafficking-related financial patterns can significantly improve prevention and intervention efforts.

Resources

Transcript

[00:00:00] Sandie: Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast. My name is Dr. Sandie Morgan, and this is the show where we equip you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference. Infighting Human Trafficking here at the Global Center for Women and Justice at Vanguard University. This is episode number 341 with David Tyree following the money, How Financial Crime Investigations Disrupt Human Trafficking. David Tyree has over 25 years of experience as a D.E.A. Agent and financial crime investigator.

[00:00:43] He has led major investigations into money laundering and drug trafficking and is a recognized expert in financial crime investigation, crime and trains law enforcement officers on detecting money laundering and asset forfeiture. Recently, he participated in the Follow the Money Roundtable with Valid8 right here at Vanguard University.

[00:01:11] David, welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast.

[00:01:15] David Tyree: Thank you. I’m so honored to be a part of this. I’m so impressed that you have 341 episodes. And I bet we can agree, wouldn’t it be nice if we didn’t have to do podcasts about this? Could we, if we could actually end this epidemic, it would just be fascinating and we could go do something different.

[00:01:33] Sandie: I love that you are bringing a little different perspective to our community. We have listeners in 171 countries. And the, I, a lot of the conversation has been about identifying victims, providing victim support, training law enforcement on victim centered care, trauma informed, all of these aspects that are so necessary. But there are people with skill sets that we haven’t really included in our conversation. And I think today, that’s going to be part of what you help us understand about how financial investigations connect to human trafficking. So let’s just start off, because I know people want to get to know you, how did you choose to pursue financial aspects of human trafficking investigation?

[00:02:34] David Tyree: Well, that’s that’s a great question. And I would just start with some background. So I was with the Drug Enforcement Administration as a special agent for, yeah, 25 years. I started in New Mexico. So in Albuquerque, where this is back in the nineties, late nineties, and there was human trafficking back then.

[00:02:52] We probably didn’t know what it was but one of my functions as an agent was to do hotel, motel, and train interdiction.

[00:03:03] Sandie: Wait a minute, wait a minute. Interdiction. That’s like a word. I don’t really think I could define.

[00:03:08] David Tyree: Oh, sure. interdiction means to stop, to intercede,

[00:03:13] Sandie: Oh, you just have to, use big words? Is that.

[00:03:16] David Tyree: I just, that’s what they called us. We were an interdiction unit. I didn’t really know what it meant. I just, uh, did what they told me.

[00:03:22] Sandie: Okay, so continue that story.

[00:03:25] David Tyree: Interdiction. is a law enforcement term that refers to sort of stopping, like interceding, and there’s different forms of interdiction.

[00:03:34] You might read in the paper about a large traffic stop, drug seizure in the middle of some interstate somewhere. That’s usually referred to in law enforcement circles as an interdiction. They stopped the ability of this narcotics trafficker to transit to their final destination or money going in the opposite direction.

[00:03:54] So in my initial endeavors, we were responding to tips. We were looking for last minute one way cash travel, and it often involved hotels and it often involved prostitution, which arguably, you know, where was it? Human trafficking? Where was a prostitution? We were looking at the same indicators.

[00:04:18] And so early on in my career, I started having contact with victims that were being trafficked or prostituted against their will. And I’m 23, 24 years old, and it opened up my eyes quickly to something that struck me that someone was making a profit off of the exploitation of these people, which falls in line with narcotics trafficking as well, right?

[00:04:43] There’s people that are making a profit off essentially addiction, which is sad to me, and something I experienced personally growing up in my family, seeing some folks in my family that were struggling with addiction and, have since made it into recovery, which is great. And they would say to me, David, you got to follow the money.

[00:05:03] Someone’s making a profit off of my misery. So I then, after about five years, transferred to Portland, Oregon, and I was put with the drugs and vice team, uh, with the Portland Police Bureau, an incredible group of investigators. Again, we were doing the same thing, targeting, drug trafficking organizations.

[00:05:21] And it always brought us with the vice team into these hotel motel. Knock and talk investigations where we kept seeing the same thing, there’d be two or three women, in one room they were going to another room. We were not exactly sure what we were looking at and it was very challenging to get them to identify as victims.

[00:05:44] Dr. Morgan, I’m going to tell you that, and that’s been the hardest part,

[00:05:48] Sandie: and that, that’s one of the things people often have this idea that victims are waiting to be rescued, waving their arms, saying, here I am, come and get me. And then when you say they don’t identify as victims, how do we help them? And further down the line, when we get to the point where we want to prosecute the predators most of our criminal justice system is based on witness testimony and you bring a new component because we need to be able to prosecute these cases without re traumatizing victims.

[00:06:32] David Tyree: Well, and so easy for me to talk about solution, and we’ll get to the money movement, but I will tell you this, and we’ll go into the deep end of the pool. And this is not an original thought, by the way, but I know, from training experience and lived experiences, there are three circles of, essentially, they intersect.

[00:06:53] These three circles would be motivations. So there’s power, there’s achievement and there’s association. And these three circles sometimes intersect, oftentimes they don’t, but to the human trafficked victim, when you try and put them in one of those circles, they’re in association, they’re, they’re associating with other victims.

[00:07:17] They’re associating with the, pimps and those that are running these organizations. Those folks running these organizations are all about power. And so when the 171 countries listen, think about speaking to someone who’s potentially a victim. You have to critically understand how important that motivation of association is, and to go and tell somebody you’re on fire, what’s happening is not right, and they’re looking at their associates, and this has now become their mechanism to pay for their lifestyles.

[00:07:54] You’re coming to take that away, and if you, you’re just another power circle. My goal, and what I watch some incredible detectives and agents do. Was they examined that motivation in advance of that initial contact and they thought, well, what can I do here? And it was, I’m going to associate how I’m going to associate with somebody who’s being trafficked is recognize how hard it is sometimes financially to make ends meet.

[00:08:22] Do you see? And if this is not manipulative, you’re using a very human, empathetic gift that I think we all can tap into and all of a sudden as you make that association, you do one thing and it’s established trust and when you establish trust, which is, I think, the greatest gift the universe gives us, you have to hold it really gently and to our conversation when we met it was, how can I in this association create a safe space without the notion of trying to manipulate somebody to become a witness, that’s, that’s definitely on the table.

[00:08:57] We want to get the perpetrators prosecuted. Not necessarily at the expense of re traumatizing the victim. So, I would joke, not joke, but I guess that’s the wrong word. I would often see us spinning plates. And trying to examine motivation and then we as law enforcement had to shift our motivation because we went from we’re going to get the guy in the parking lot in the rental car that’s exploiting these women and then we’re having conversations with these women who were almost in an argument about their role and it really took away from our efficacy because then we just became another power if that makes sense.

[00:09:39] And that was we learned quickly how that took away from our efficacy. And so I know that again when I say deep into the pool, I’m always speaking with law enforcement about what’s the motivation here. Because for police, by the way, it can be power. It can also be achievement. And we also bring association into that environment, just as law enforcement associating with law enforcement.

[00:10:04] So again, deep end of the pool. Cops are pretty guarded. They’re not really trusting, right? We’ve been lied to so much. We’re not fun at parties. How you as law enforcement can sort of take off that jacket and say, you know, I actually Started to do this because I wanted to help people, you sort of have to go back to your roots and again convincing a victim that they’re a victim probably not the best move at your initial contact you. What like you’re doing.

[00:10:35] You’re providing a safe space. You’re allowing someone to decompress from trauma and I can tell you from being around police that have been in shootings and myself as well, sometimes it takes days to decompress from those critical incidents. So imagine taking someone out of an environment where they’ve been trafficked, they don’t have the mechanisms to leave, they don’t believe they’re being trafficked, and you’re now pressing them trying to get critical evidence against your perpetrators.

[00:11:05] Police solve problems in 15 minutes or less. That’s just how it works. And so you put them in this and that’s not to say that they can’t get there, but I just think it takes a lot of heart and it takes you have to see people. I think differently. And that’s where it goes back to, to me following the money because I can tell you when I started doing this and I started watching the Cheyenne police department was in my office.

[00:11:33] They were all sworn through FBI and they were the human trafficking task force. Incredible. They taught me so much. They did so much great work. And when they showed me how to follow the money through green dot cards that were all being uploaded by bad guys that were frequenting these traffic victims and then moving to a prison facility in California.

[00:11:57] It was fascinating and it was, I thought, this is a one time isolated event, like a polaroid, a snapshot, seven women, one guy in the parking lot. These detectives showed me these people were going all over the country doing this, being exploited, getting onto different websites to advertise their services.

[00:12:18] It shocked me to see how much money was moving. So I started learning quite a bit about the money movement, which was oftentimes double charges at the door at the hotel room door. There was an entry fee. Normally it seemed like 70 to 80 dollars and then a secondary fee of 15 to 20 dollars. Apparently this is a tip for services rendered that money was moving from our, whoever frequent in these women, it would move from their account.

[00:12:47] To the woman’s phone that had some sort of money cash app. Zelle, Venmo, you name it. They had a mechanism to collect that money. And then it moved again to the bad guy sitting in the parking lot.

[00:13:02] Sandie: So, Financial investigation, how do you access and investigate those kinds of transactions?

[00:13:12] David Tyree: Those money service providers will help. They all have law enforcement portals. There is a subpoena process. Those I’m not promoting any of them. I don’t use any of them, but their law enforcement support services were incredible. So there is a judicial process, right? We had to get subpoenas.

[00:13:32] We had to look at first name only, addresses that were attributed to the accounts. And then you start making a picture You start to see money move, you get voluminous documents back, which is why I went to work for Valid8 because they’re the only company I know that makes sense of that money movement.

[00:13:52] Shameless plug for Valid8.

[00:13:54] Sandie: let’s let’s describe, we’ll take a little pause here from the big picture the idea that you get voluminous data, so much data, it’s overwhelming. So this software is going to save you from manually going through all of these transactions. Is that kind of the idea?

[00:14:19] David Tyree: yes, and that’s not why I’m such a fan. Yes, it makes it, money is fungible, right? It moves very quickly and it doesn’t lie. Bank records don’t lie. Witnesses lie. Informants lie. Arguably any witness can lie. The bank records tell a story of money movement and that money movement, in my opinion, tells a story to the jury.

[00:14:43] It tells a story to the prosecutor because juries, they may not understand human trafficking, financial literacy, how, how this operation, you know, is created and, and the defense can tear that apart. What they can’t tear apart is these 17 women have been sending that guy money all over the country.

[00:15:06] And he has rental cars in every hotel city where they frequented. And once the money hits the guy in the rental car, who’s managing this, the money moves to some other bad actor in another state. That to me is the most concrete evidence that a jury has to look at and say, well, that is beyond a reasonable doubt.

[00:15:26] This is not normal. This is not how my money works. So that’s when we say, follow the money. I want to tell a story. I want to tell a story that cannot be refuted because these are bank records. So the voluminosity around all of that, it does \ tend to overwhelm law enforcement because we were meaning making animals.

[00:15:49] We need to make a quick story that we can articulate and that’s why I, when we talk about following the money, I’m like an action, the money, that money is going to somebody who is higher up in the organization. And they may have assets that they’ve acquired through the exploitation of these victims that we need to go after.

[00:16:09] So we can get these victims financial restitution. And as we spoke about, not just restitution, but financial literacy, now that you’ve been, we, you, you’ve been compensated as a victim, and now you have this money. How can we help you as a society? So you are not drawn back into this solution when times are tough.

[00:16:33] Sandie: So let’s, break that, that last section up into two parts. First, talk a little bit more about, asset forfeiture and restitution. And then let’s move into the financial literacy conversation.

[00:16:49] David Tyree: Perfect. Yeah. So the asset forfeiture piece is at the federal level and at many states is, teeth. And what that, what those teeth do is take a bite out of the criminal organization’s ability to reconstitute. So you, you take their money. This is my lived experience at DEA, I participated in the seizure

[00:17:11] A lot of money and at times I’ve seen these organizations crumble because they’re not able to reconstitute. Taking their drugs is great. Trust me, take them off the streets, a big deal. It’s arguably a 99 percent profit margin so they can get more drugs. They can reconstitute narcotics. You take their money and now they have a really difficult time paying off debts, paying off obligations, paying traffickers, paying the organization.

[00:17:40] So, in my professional opinion, it is a tool to combat crime. And I’m very careful to not articulate some idea that this is the only tool because I think again, going back to those three motivations, if I say money laundering, following the money is the only way to do this. I lose association and I move over to power and achievement.

[00:18:03] So I’m always trying to stay where I’m most comfortable, which is association. I’m deep in my head, Dr. Morgan.

[00:18:09] Sandie: No, I love it. I love it. We could talk for hours and this is why, when I was titling this episode, I used the terminology of financial crime investigations that disrupt

[00:18:24] human trafficking and so that part means that we don’t have the arrogance to think our approach is the be all and end all of in this battle, but we do have to be more inclusive as a movement to consider the perspective as well as the tools and the ability to investigate from a different perspective. So now we’re talking about the forfeiture and then victim compensation. I think that restitution piece has an element of, healing that has been overlooked. We look at it in hard, cold, social justice, criminal justice perspectives. But when I talk to victims, when they receive restitution no matter how much it is, that’s what they report to me as the most significant aspect of their case. When I talk to them about how many years the perpetrator got and is, they’re not really that interested in talking about that. So when, in your experience with restitution, I was really surprised to hear from a numbers being counter, I have stereotypes about, how you guys think and all, that your heart came to the table because the first thing you wanted to do is equip those victims with financial literacy. Can you explain how you came to that conclusion?

[00:20:11] David Tyree: Absolutely. So, and I, we can agree, it’s a really complicated multifaceted problem, right? I’ll go back when we were combating methamphetamine in the mid 2000s. We did this the faces of meth campaign and billboards around the country were showing sort of that transition with a methamphetamine user to a full blown addict and it sent a message.

[00:20:36] We put victims up around the country and it actually, I think from the numbers, impacted people in their decision process about, hey, am I going to really go down the methamphetamine avenue? When we think about what struck my heart on human trafficking were interviews in the field. And you and I were, were probably very blessed.

[00:21:01] Like I don’t often think about 60 dollars being the way I can feed my kid for the week and get them, pay for their field trip. Right. And I think in the drug world, doing undercover, I saw greed, I saw a lot of greed from drug traffickers. I also saw, in my experiences doing some re entry work in the courts, people coming out of prison.

[00:21:27] And I’ll never forget, it was a gangster’s disciple who had to come up with, child support and some other obligations. And he did not know I was with DEA. I was with a judge and some other individuals doing some re entry work. And he said, I could easily sell two pounds of marijuana and pay off all my debts and be stress free the rest of the week.

[00:21:46] He goes, but I’m not. I’m going to go to Home Depot. I’m going to work my shifts and I’m going to make my financial obligations because he had been exposed to some financial literacy training. All of a sudden he was thinking about 401ks and savings accounts. When we think about those that are maybe not bankable or who just don’t have the financial where withal to make ends meet.

[00:22:10] That creates a lot of desperation, but by the grace of God, I haven’t had to be there yet. I’m knocking on wood, but imagine how that must feel. So when we talk about financial literacy, that’s a big word in to say, hey, listen, you’re going to get this restitution and whatever that amount is, we want to help you set yourself up for failure because clearly there’s been some impulsive decisions around what to do when times get tough.

[00:22:39] So we are going to walk with you through getting your driver’s license back. That’s a fee. You know, 30 bucks to you and me is ah, I lost my license to somebody only has 180 dollars. They’re like, I’m not going to have a license that is doesn’t write the Maslow’s triangle of needs. So doing some of those interviews and watching truly many of these women had children that they were trying to look after, or they had a court fee where they were trying to deal with custody.

[00:23:11] And these women I felt would do anything, anything to take care of outside needs. I wasn’t seeing as law enforcement. So it was getting to know some of these women walking with them and working with social services to create, not just like a, a net, but a springboard and it sounds really silly, Sandie, but if no one’s going to drive you to the bank and you don’t have a driver’s license, you’re not getting a bank account.

[00:23:43] So all the restitution in the world doesn’t matter if you get a check and you’re like, I don’t bank anywhere. My function and really watching the Cheyenne police department detectives, they teamed up with social services and I was in awe of the commitment they made because their mindset was no more victims.

[00:24:05] And I thought, no more victims? And they said, not in our city. And it wasn’t about arresting their way out of the problem. These are really thoughtful, smart, inspiring detectives, who at times, I know, dipped into their own wallets to create an environment where these people, these victims, were made safe.

[00:24:26] And, and I know I’m not talking about throwing money at the problem. I’m talking about throwing your heart and soul at a problem and, and being so empathetic and nonjudgmental. That was the number one for me. I have two daughters. I, I, I have to go into this situation with zero judgment, zero eye rolls, zero.

[00:24:48] My only motivation again was association because through that association, I built trust and I listened. And I validated as much as I talk. I learned through a counselor to listen and all I had to say was, that sounds really hard. That sounds really hard. So as they’re telling me, Hey, listen, I’m not a victim here.

[00:25:09] You know, men have been arguing. I can’t sell my body. It’s my body. I’m going to do what I want. And you don’t have any idea what it’s like when rents due and there’s no food on the table. I’m going to do what I need to do. My David response was like, whoa, whoa, whoa instead, I would just go, that sounds really hard.

[00:25:27] Your financial circumstances sound really, really challenging. I’m so sorry for that. They were not necessarily looking for sympathy. In fact, I was told to drop, I’m sorry that it was implied. Because again, I’m just building trust through validation. And what is my motivation? It’s not power. The last thing is power.

[00:25:45] So everything was question driven. Do you have a place to stay tonight? Do you have safe accommodations? Do you need any medicine? Do your children need any medicine? It was radical curiosity and really from a sincere place, honestly, I hope it doesn’t sound manipulative, but what I was trying to do was quickly

[00:26:06] build trust and not be a power source, but be somebody who is trying to associate. And they actually are really good in general. They at problem solving for the most part, they’re like, no, I don’t have a place to say I need a place to stay. If I didn’t have a place, I just destroyed trust right then and there.

[00:26:26] Right. So we, though we were very tactical in our approaches and while we’re doing all this. We have a warrant for the phones. We’re dumping the phone. We’re finding where the money’s moving. We were reaching out to financial institutions. I got to tell you, FinCEN, the financial crimes network, they have set a threshold for banks to alert to what could be suspicious activity.

[00:26:48] It’s 5, 000 dollars. I’ve never gotten into a case at a hotel, at a bus station, that there was 5, 000 dollars of movement. So we started educating financial institutions. We started giving them methodology. We asked them what to look for and without naming any banks, I got to tell you. Every bank I dealt with was so on board with being part of the solution.

[00:27:12] So on board with saying FinCEN that’s great because of what DEA and the Cheyenne Police Department have told us we’re not gonna we’re going to ignore that threshold and we’re going to look for this typology and money movement. Which is again David Tyree lives in northern Colorado If i’m traveling to Arkansas and you see that i’m getting i’m paying for a hotel at the Marriott and i’m also paying for a hotel at the motel six. Well, that should, that’s strange.

[00:27:39] And then if you see on my debit card, double payment within an hour, first name only at Venmo.com or at Cash app.com. This is important. And the financial institution needs to alert that. And they need to, once they’ve done their due diligence, they need to notify law enforcement in that area. Hey, you’ve got somebody in that, in your city perpetrating crime.

[00:28:00] It may be human trafficking. It may be prostitution. I tell you what, you know, the difference is Sandie. If that girl, woman is underage, if she’s 17, it’s human trafficking at the federal level. If they don’t have their identification or mechanism to leave that environment, they don’t get their luggage, they don’t, you’ve got human trafficking.

[00:28:18] And guess who your good witness is? The guy that’s perpetrating the prostitution or human trafficking crime. That guy, because guess who I’m going to call? I shouldn’t even say this online. Hey, you have two choices. You can jump on the law enforcement. I’m going to help you raft. Or we might need to reach out to your company and your wife to confirm your travel.

[00:28:40] Does she know you’re paying for two rooms? Now, I moved from association to power.

[00:28:47] Sandie: Wow, it is so clear that you are passionate about the work you’re doing to disrupt human trafficking. A couple of observations from my perspective is it was new for me to begin to think that curiosity about financial issues goes the other direction. Those questions. And I have talked to victim service providers.

[00:29:16] I’ve talked to victims and the concerns that you uncover. Do you have a place to stay? Can you pay for your kids schooling? Those are all things that have been part of the conversation. So following the money from the victim’s perspective, maybe a slightly new perspective for some folks, to begin to understand why restitution is significant. And I don’t want to drop off from the conversation around financial literacy because that missing that particular aspect of this will make it much more certain that a victim may fall into the same patterns

[00:30:08] again and again. So, I have so much to think about with where we can beef up that aspect of our approach, from the victim side, I want to understand and learn more about following the money at a higher level. And I just, I’m so grateful for your insight and as a closing question, I, I want to go back to earlier and talk about your why, and you thanked me at the beginning as we got online, to start this podcast. And so if you can give us that personal perspective, your why.

[00:31:00] David Tyree: Great question. I have gotten my hands dirty in my life doing these kinds of investigations, not just in the U.S in Europe and West Africa. And I have seen up close and personal the exploitation of human beings. And as much as I like to use my sense of humor or create distance, it left a mark. It left a mark on me that’s indelible and, it touches home.

[00:31:29] I mean, like I’ve told you, I have two daughters and a son and they were concerned when human trafficking was becoming a big issue. And so, for my ability to decompress from a hotel, environment, with the Cheyenne Police Department and their human trafficking cases, I had a 45 minute commute back home and the message in my head was don’t forget, don’t forget, don’t forget because it’s so hard to see it up close and personal and these are real people with the same problems I have just at a different level and I have not been able to shake it and there’s days I wish I could and I’m not, trust me, I’m, I’m no saint and I, there’s so much more I want to be able to do.

[00:32:18] What my why goes back to is there is somebody making a profit off of that misery and I will get with Cash App, Venmo, Apple Pay, and I will paint a picture and I’m going to take their money, I’m going to put them in prison, the people that are making money off that person, I’m going to take their money, I’m going to put them in prison, I’m going to follow the money, I’m going to make a story, and I will take out the economic incentive to exploit

[00:32:46] the least of us and it, it drives me every morning, gets me out of bed and I retired. But before our call, I was called consulting DEA on a case and it just wrecks me because at the end of this case, a lot of money movement are overdose victims from fentanyl and I know from growing up in an addicted home, the misery, like you can say, Oh, overdose.

[00:33:11] That’s so sad. Person’s deceased. They were using drugs. That’s a bad idea. There’s a family behind that victim. There’s a mom, there’s a dad, there’s uncle, and they’re hurting. And I feel like it’s not just law enforcement. It’s all of us as a society. Like we can get behind maybe nothing politically, but certainly corporately as human beings that this is not okay.

[00:33:37] We know it’s not okay. We’ve put an end to slavery. We know this is wrong. Let’s attack those that are making financial gain off the misery of others. Let’s say not today. And this is how we’re going to do it. And Dr. Morgan, I’ll send you, for your listeners, every link I have to every cash money transfer system.

[00:33:58] They’re so helpful, through these law enforcement portals. I’m always available, day or night, if someone has a question. If I don’t know the answer, I’ll point them in the right direction. I’m just so passionate about this because as you know

[00:34:10] There is hope. There is hope. And if you want to kill my hope, you’re going to have to kill me. I will not. I will not. And this sounds hyperbolic, but it’s what gets me. I’m not going to surrender the only thing that gives me any strength in this is hope. I hope. That there’s a change in there that light at the end of the tunnel is not an oncoming train, but through folks like you and your organization that we’re actually creating light and we’re creating opportunity because I’m not AI, but you ask AI how to cure this.

[00:34:41] It will tell you. Create opportunity.

[00:34:44] Sandie: Wow. David, it has been such a pleasure and hope is part of our mission statement here at Vanguard University’s Global Center for Women in Justice. And our listeners, if you found this episode helpful, jump over to the ending human trafficking.org website, subscribe, leave a review, find the show notes, join us and share this with others that you think might benefit and post on social media. David, this has been such an energizing conversation. I’m sure I’m going to be waking up in the middle of the night for days and I look forward to our next conversation. Thank you for joining us.

[00:35:35] David Tyree: Well, it is an honor and I am so proud to be a part of your solution. It means the world to me. So I was looking forward to this from the moment we met and, anything I can do to be part of that solution to be part of your solution. I’ll just bask in your glory,

[00:35:50] but it’s wonderful what you are doing and it takes so much courage and to your listeners to even download a podcast about ending human trafficking.

[00:36:00] This takes courage. This is what we’re built for. We are built for storms and it, it, I’m so I’ll get off this and I’ll be all, my wife will think I’m all caffeinated. I’m like, no, I got to speak about something I’m passionate about. And, uh, so I thank you for the opportunity.

[00:36:17] Sandie: Oh, that’s great. And to our listeners, I’ll see you again in two weeks.