Alia Azariah joins Dr. Sandie Morgan to discuss her journey from being an online victim of trafficking to becoming an advocate for youth and aftercare.

Alia Azariah

Alia Azariah is a passionate advocate and survivor dedicated to ending human trafficking and empowering those affected by this grave violation of human rights. Her focus lies in creating safe and sustainable communities through education and advocacy, service provision, and social justice. With a combination of professional knowledge, personal experience, and compassion, she works diligently at both local and national levels to create lasting change in the lives of trafficking survivors through specialized training and safe housing initiatives.

Key Points

• Alia shares her personal experience of being groomed and trafficked through social media, emphasizing how vulnerabilities prior to being online contributed to her exploitation.
• She describes how traffickers use psychological tactics, such as fulfilling unmet emotional needs, to build trust and manipulate victims.
• The lack of awareness about the dangers of social media during the early days of platforms like MySpace contributed to the ease of exploitation.
• Alia explains how Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs helps in understanding vulnerability beyond just economic hardship, showing how traffickers exploit various unmet needs.
• Traffickers deliberately create or exploit a sense of dependence, offering victims what seems like support or love to gain control.
• She discusses the importance of community and long-term support in a survivor’s healing journey, highlighting that recovery requires more than just therapy or shelter.
• Alia emphasizes the need for survivor inclusion in leadership roles, pushing for organizations to provide survivors with professional development opportunities rather than limiting them to direct care roles.
• She challenges organizations to evaluate their approach to survivor leadership, advocating for hiring based on character and potential rather than just experience.
• The conversation highlights the gaps in services for minors exiting trafficking, emphasizing the critical need for effective emergency stabilization solutions in the first six months post-exploitation.
• Alia advocates for policy changes at local, state, and national levels to improve services for trafficking survivors, particularly minors.
• As a mother, she applies her knowledge by implementing strict social media guidelines for her children and having ongoing discussions about online safety.
• She will be participating in the Insure Justice conference, where discussions on improving survivor resources and policy will continue.

Resources

• Alia Azariah on LinkedIn
• Safe House Project

Transcript

[00:00:00] Sandie: Welcome to the ending human trafficking podcast here at Vanguard University’s Global Center for Women and Justice in Orange County, California. This is episode number 338 survivor alia Azariah, from online victim to serving youth and aftercare. My name is Dr. Sandy Morgan, and this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice and make a difference in ending human trafficking.

[00:00:35] Alia Azariah is a passionate advocate and survivor dedicated to ending human trafficking and empowering those affected by this grave violation of human rights.

[00:00:49] Her focus lies in creating safe and sustainable communities through education, advocacy, service provision, and social justice with a combination of professional knowledge, personal experience, and compassion. She works diligently at both local and national levels to create lasting change in the lives of trafficking survivors through specialized training and safe housing initiatives.

[00:01:22] Alia, it is such a delight to have you on the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. And as I was reading your bio, it sounded like you’ve been part of Global Center for Women and Justice for years. use a lot of the same language that we do in our work against human trafficking. So welcome to the show.

[00:01:47] Alia: Thank you.

[00:01:48] Sandie: So let’s start out withy experience go back a few years

[00:01:56] to when you were a young person and you were online on MySpace and tell us about that part of your story.

[00:02:09] Alia: Yeah, so I was vulnerable before I ever got on the computer, right? And so that’s important because I was already, like, experiencing a lot of bullying at school. I was already, lacking family support. I was involved in a group of students at school who were very young and yet making really scary choices already.

[00:02:31] And this was about 6th grade, and so I had a lot of vulnerabilities before I ever got to social media, and so when you mixed those things together, it was really a prime, situation for exploitation and for meeting people who were looking to fill a need, and I was going to social media Hoping to get a need met, right?

[00:02:52] So my, my goal for social media wasn’t to talk to the friends that I already had, wasn’t to communicate with family. My goal entering social media was to fulfill my needs of, one, having people who cared about me. I already had like mixed messages in my mind about how people were supposed to care about you.

[00:03:14] So that was really, really priming me for exploitation. So I was already, even outside of social media, looking for my needs to be met by adult men, believing that that was like how I could best get those needs met. And so social media seemed like a more streamlined version to a way of having those needs met.

[00:03:35] And then I was looking for people to, to, buy me new shoes and, and things that, most teens want, right, but are getting from their parents or the people that take care of them, usually. and so, this was also just a dangerous time, as it is even now, but in a different way with social media, in that at least now we know what the dangers are.

[00:03:55] And we have things to prevent some of those dangers. When MySpace launched, nobody knew what social media could present. Nobody knew or thought of what the dangers were because it was brand new. Right. And so these weren’t conversations we were having in schools or with parents or things like that.

[00:04:14] And so, nobody even really knew to know if I had a social, a social media page. nobody was wondering if I had a MySpace and, creating rules and boundaries around what that looked like. And so when I created a MySpace, I was going on there. To connect with people that I didn’t know, because I thought that that would, that would fill my needs.

[00:04:34] and in many ways, I think the hard thing is like it did. It fulfilled them in ways that were really unhealthy and really unsafe and led me to being trafficked. But that was the kind of the tool that my trafficker used was the fact that he was able to fulfill those needs for somebody who cared about me.

[00:04:50] He was able to say those things to me that he needed, to. And so I was already meeting up with people via MySpace when I met my trafficker. I was running away outside of social media. And I would find myself in situations that were really, really scary. When I would run away, when I would just meet people on the street.

[00:05:11] and so I, I was using, you know, now I look back and go like, look at my little 12, 13 year old self. doing harm reduction in my own life, you know, and, and I felt like, okay, if I meet people on social media, at least I know who I’m meeting with. And I can kind of like, maybe get a vibe from them was what I was trying to do.

[00:05:32] It was actually trying to keep myself safe and, but of course, safety is really skewed when you’ve grown up in a vulnerable home and things. So, I was meeting people on social media, and I would run away, and at least I would have a place to stay, and I would have, like, a roof over my head when I would run away, and then I would come back home, and, you know, a couple weeks later, I would do it again.

[00:05:53] and, one time, this one time, I was communicating with somebody over social media that I was planning on running away with, and it, I didn’t know this. You know, we didn’t talk about trafficking. This was probably like 2004. and I was communicating with him over social media and the person on the other side of the computer was someone who had a history of trafficking girls.

[00:06:17] He’d been doing this. He was 28 at the time that I was messaging him. I think he had started trafficking girls when he was like 17. and so he’d been doing this for, a decade. And, what he struck me as different than the other people that I had been really being exploited by as well, but not in this like third party trafficker kind of way.

[00:06:40] he struck me as different because his goal was not to meet with me that day. Whereas everyone else that I had been, like, it was like very clearly, I know what their goal is. I’m just trying to find a place to stay. that was my goal. They had their goal. He showed me that his goal was to get to know me.

[00:06:59] His goal was to find out like who I was and to tell me that he cared about me and to talk to me. And that was like the most enticing thing. And the thing that I didn’t, I didn’t have a dad. I didn’t have real men in my life who were taking care of me and were showing interest in me. And so. It instantly, even over social media, created a, like an extreme bond that his goal was not to get me to meet up that day.

[00:07:30] His goal was to love me. And even when we did end up meeting up maybe a week or so after communicating online, he, we just sat in his truck at the end of my street. He did not sleep with me. He did not get me high. He just sat there with me and told me that I should probably go back inside. And so we sat there until like late in the morning and then he had me go back inside.

[00:07:54] And so he was building this trust and this, belief that like he was so different from all of these other experiences that I had and that, his goal was not just to like fill my need and get out and his goal was to take care of me. And so that was like how he was using this like grooming process.

[00:08:15] that was the message that he was, he was, giving me in this grooming process over social media and over our interactions was that he wanted to take care of me and that he was going to be there for me. which was much more powerful. That was an extremely powerful belief to embed in my mind that he wanted to take care of me and make me feel safe, because that was something that, that was a need I didn’t, that was a very significant need that was empty and not being felt in my life.

[00:08:49] Sandie: So I love the fact that you can go back and look at your younger self and teach us about that vulnerability from the young person’s perspective. It’s like Monday morning quarterbacking from your chair. And so I’m really interested in how you as now a professional apply Maslow’s hierarchy to what happened.

[00:09:17] Alia: Yeah, I, I love Maslow’s hierarchy because I think what I see and what I’m sure you see and everyone sees is like, of course, There is a significant portion of people who’ve been trafficked that have all of the same vulnerability, right? There’s a lot that have the same vulnerabilities. But we also run across, I mean, I’ve run across women who had master’s degrees before they were ever exploited, or, you know, doctorates even, or came from families that were really, really supportive.

[00:09:49] And I think Maslow’s hierarchy helps us understand how they were exploited also instead of kind of grouping everybody together into, well, you had to have been sexually abused when you were younger and you experienced poverty and you were within the foster system because it broadens our idea of what a vulnerable person is.

[00:10:10] And so if we look at Maslow’s hierarchy, right, like, Of course, the people who have that bottom level of physiological, physical needs, of course, those people who don’t have that met are going to be significantly vulnerable, but it allows us to broaden like the, the, these people who are just searching for truth, and searching for purpose, and searching for belonging, and searching to the, for, the best version of who they can be.

[00:10:36] They’re vulnerable, too, if they’re met with the right trafficker who knows how to exploit that thing and how to, like, come in and say, like, I’m gonna, you know, I have girls who it’s been like, I’m gonna make you a star, right? that’s not That’s not this bottom. They had food. They had house. They had this, but they wanted, they were searching for something more.

[00:10:55] And if you have a trafficker who promises whatever need it is, you’re vulnerable. and so I think it helps us like broaden that. And like, there is a book, there’s a few books out there that, I’ve been able to get my hands on that are written by pimps or traffickers. And if you’re interested, make sure you buy it used or look at it used.

[00:11:14] Don’t buy it new. They get the royalties. Little disclaimer in there, but they have pictures of Maslow’s Hierarchy in them, or they have elements of Maslow’s Hierarchy in them, or they’ll even talk about like, there’s one, I think it was Pimpology, I can’t remember which book it was, but there was one of the books that was like, It says like, if you can’t find a need, make one.

[00:11:36] if you can’t find, like a, a, a place of insignificance in their life, create it. And then fill. So, I, I, the thing I think, though, is that’s so great about Maslow’s Hierarchy is it allows us to understand some of those things that we’re like, wait, but this person didn’t grow up vulnerable. How could a trafficker get in there and, and can, fill a need if they had a house and they had a supportive family because it broadens those things that create need.

[00:12:03] Sandie: Absolutely. And sometimes, the vulnerability is having dreams.

[00:12:08] Alia: Totally.

[00:12:09] Sandie: Yes. Oh my gosh. Okay. So, you have come a long way from my space. And in fact, I am so impressed that you received the prestigious resiliency award from Ventura County District Attorney’s Office. Shout out to Ventura. County for that recognition and applause for you.

[00:12:33] I want to know, how your personal journey shaped that, how it shaped your approach to working with survivors and mentorship that led to you to being recognized for resiliency. That’s like more than just, I’m okay. It means. I’ve bounced back,

[00:12:59] Alia: Right? I think, for me, my trafficking went on for so long, you know, I was in, in, you know, of course with breaks and trying to get out, things like that, but my first experience of being exploited was in, 2003 or 2004. And my last experience was in the beginning of 2018, and so I had trafficking experiences all throughout that time.

[00:13:22] And, I learned so much in that. I learned how difficult it is to leave. I learned, a lot about what other people had gone through, because of course you’re not usually trapped. Some people are, but my experience wasn’t that I was trafficked in like a silo where I was the only person being trafficked that I met.

[00:13:40] and so I learned a lot about other people that were being exploited. and I had multiple traffickers, and so I learned a lot about different types of exploitation and how it can look different based on, the type of exploiter that you’re with. and I made a lot of either like made a lot of decisions out of my own trauma and my own like attempt to survival or were forced into a lot of positions that caused a lot of damage, by the time that I was able to exit.

[00:14:06] And so when I go into working with other survivors, I think it gave me like a really a breath of kind of experience and understanding to be able to like hold space for people and understand that our journeys, just, look, our journeys are not clean, and I had to do, because of the way, and not that all survivors don’t need to do a lot of work to, find healing, we do, but I think, the longer you’re in the life and the longer that’s your normal, maybe the more of the worldview you have to break down, to reintegrate successfully, and so I had to do a lot of, not just, like, rewriting trauma responses, but a lot of, creating an entire new worldview, in order to do well in life.

[00:14:56] and so, because I’ve done that, when I work with a survivor, it’s, easier for me to understand where they’re coming from and to not ever have this feeling of like, well, they’re too far, or that’s too messy, or that’s too hard and I’m, I’m really grateful that I’m able to articulate, I, like, I, found a lot of healing from like understanding why my brain kept sabotaging me.

[00:15:24] and so I did a lot of work when I was healing in trying to understand if I don’t want to go back to the life and I don’t want this to keep happening why do I want this? Why do I want to go back to the life today? If that’s not what I want, why do I want to do it today? and so, that’s like one of the biggest things that I encounter with survivors, is they’re like, Today I want to go back, so that means I need to go back, or that means nothing mattered.

[00:15:47] And really being able to articulate like the, you know, neuro, pathways and things, and being able to like give them freedom in that way. But, I think it’s really helped me, like, hold space for the process, and, come back time and time again and know that, like, I think the biggest thing for me is, like, I got better and I got out and I found healing through community.

[00:16:09] if I didn’t have a village of people that assisted me in my exit and in my recovery for multiple years after, and even now. I wouldn’t have gotten better. It wouldn’t have been therapy alone or programming alone. Like, I needed so many people to just be with and just spend time with, that that’s something that I’m like grateful I get to be a part of the community for others and kind of help build that and broaden that message.

[00:16:42] Sandie: so let me drill down just a little bit on the, the theme of you did the work, you did the work. And as I’ve become friends and part of someone’s village, this sense of personal responsibility in your healing is something that I don’t always see acknowledged in the The programs that come alongside and want to, serve well intentioned, but making it too easy, maybe, I’m not sure what that means, but I, I just, I, I hear successful survivors who say, I did this, I made this happen.

[00:17:33] And that is a commitment. That is a key element of resiliency. So I want to talk about how as a survivor leader working within existing systems, how do you address those wonderful allies who are trying to do it all for you? maybe any other observations.

[00:17:57] Alia: yeah, I think I have been so spoiled in the field, honestly, in that my first position is still my main position and they’re gonna have to kick me out the door, kicking, like, kicking and screaming to get rid of me, because my first experience in the field was with allies, our CEO and COO, who put me in a position that honestly, like looking at my resume, I had no business being in and said, we’re going to teach you, we’re going to teach you how to do this job.

[00:18:30] And we’re going to teach you to do it well. And right now, all you have is your own lived experience and, and almost a degree didn’t even have a degree yet. but we believe you can do it. And so we’re going to teach you. And so I’m really blessed, really lucky to have had that experience. And what I’ve seen is that that’s not the usual experience of survivor leaders in the field, that usually the experience is, this is kind of what we believe survivors are able to do, they work great with other survivors, we love putting survivors in direct care positions, we love having survivors as consultants, we love having survivors as advocates.

[00:19:06] As speaker roles, but when it comes to like, especially executive leadership, leadership positions, administration positions, those just don’t gel with. Survivor skill sets or they’re not the place where like the survivor voice is most needed and I really have been wanting to push back and been pushing back on some of those and trying to guide organizations to being like, we need to be a part of teaching survivors

[00:19:32] how to step into those roles because anybody who’s good at those things, they’ve got to be good at those positions by having the experience and to do that. Nobody, you know, no executive, no ED didn’t have some kind of at least tangential, experiences that helped them learn how to do that.

[00:19:50] Or, maybe they didn’t. I have known EDs who had no experience and stepped in, and they learned, and they fought, sought help, and they found out how. And survivors are just as capable of learning that as anyone else, right? And so, I’ve really been trying to push, like, allies to find, like, how do you hire on character, how do you hire on, goals, and then come alongside with the learning to be able to equip somebody to sit in those positions, because this needs to be a joint effort, like, I couldn’t, I would never be where I am and have the, the skill set that I have if my supervisors Didn’t have expectations that I could learn and that I could accomplish things that I didn’t know how to do when I step into, when I stepped into the field.

[00:20:39] and it’s really, it’s been incredible, obviously for my professional experience, but even for my personal growth and like self esteem to know like, oh, I can learn how to do Excel.

[00:20:51] Sandie: Oh wow.

[00:20:53] Sandie: Oh my gosh, you’re so funny because I’ve been trying to learn how to do Excel and I’m overwhelmed and I can’t do it. And,

[00:21:00] and and we’re going to make sure we put a link to safe house project because they are doing this well, and they’re such a model for the rest of us to learn from so we got We will definitely need to follow up on that conversation in another episode when we’re looking at where the biggest needs are to create that kind of lasting impact.

[00:21:30] What do you want to say to, those of us in the field? Some of us have been doing this for a very long time. we’re disappointed with our results and we just don’t know the next path. Tell us.

[00:21:45] Alia: Yeah, so I am really passionate about emergency solutions for minors. I, I mean, we need everything for adults, of course, and we need all of the solutions for minors also. But what I’m seeing, right, as this was my experience as a minor, this is the experience of, most of the adults that I’m friends with, or mentor, and especially the experience of the minors that I’m working with right now, is We’re not coming alongside with appropriate solutions for those six months post exploitation.

[00:22:23] and I think sometimes we have tried to over compensate for the poor solutions that we’ve had in the past, as far as like, we all know juvenile system and the juvenile justice system and like a lockdown behavioral health hospital are not the solution.

[00:22:43] We’ve gotten to a point where we understand that, right? But we’re asking, so we’ve created these like CSEC specific STRTPs, and we’re asking them to do the work of the first six months. And that’s not what they’re set up to do. I have worked with almost all of them across the state, and I think they would, and so they look like they’re unsuccessful.

[00:23:09] They look like these CSEC STRTPs are unsuccessful.

[00:23:12] Sandie: let’s define STRTP.

[00:23:14] Alia: Yeah, short term residential treatment program

[00:23:17] therapeutic congregate care for youth. That’s what an STRTP is. But I think they would be successful if they were getting youth who’d been stabilized already. I think that the way that these programs are written, they would be able to do something in that second six months to nine months with the youth about trying to like help reintegrate.

[00:23:37] Let’s focus on Let’s get into the deep healing. But when I have a kid that can’t get out of survival mode and like runs every three days, like we can’t, of course the STRTP or the safe home isn’t looking like it’s working and it’s looking like it’s a bad place because this kid is in a place where they can’t engage therapeutically about their trafficking.

[00:23:59] Like they’re not in that place. And so we’ve made these solutions to step in so that juvenile justice isn’t a solution, but we’re not using them. Our kids are still in juvenile justice systems and our kids are still in really locked down behavioral health centers that, that can take them right away off the street.

[00:24:21] And we’re just looking like we’ve done the thing that we’re supposed to do and we’re not, we haven’t actually because all the kids I’m working with are still in juvenile justice and they are still in the lockdown behavioral health centers that are not equipped for this population of kids. Other populations of kids, I think they’re doing really great work, not equipped for this population.

[00:24:44] It’s hard to have a lot of girls who are all exploited, especially in California, especially in, the world that we live in where they’re all connected. That’s what I’m noticing, is all the girls know each other, even if this one’s from Oakland and this one’s from San Diego. They know each other because this one knew this one’s cousin and they were in this group home together and they knew this and they know this person through social media.

[00:25:09] So you’re not getting six strangers in a treatment program together anymore. You’re getting six girls that are already connected who already have trafficking experiences and asking them to heal alongside of each other. When they can’t even, because they’re all together, they can’t even get out of survival mode.

[00:25:25] and so I’m really like passionate about finding some more appropriate solutions for youth that are just coming off the street, who have significant C Sec and trauma history, and significant rates of elopement, that those girls need a different option.

[00:25:42] Sandie: Well, that makes, me really glad that you are a member of the California CSEC Action Teams Advisory Board and so you’re working on improving policies and practices for children impacted by commercial sexual exploitation. I’d love to have another conversation in a future episode

[00:26:06] To talk about how we can improve policies at a local level, at a county level, at a state and at a national and I do believe that that conversation includes changing language that is already established and codified in our legal system. And so there’s confusion about how we talk about this that ends up labeling victims.

[00:26:37] And I’m getting away from our topic. And so I want to jump back to where we started as a vulnerable youth. Engaging with an adult equipped with the knowledge of Maslow’s hierarchy, that always just blows me away because that means that if we want to compete with the people recruiting our kids, we need to understand Maslow’s, and so you’re a mom. And I want to know how you’ve taken your knowledge, your experience, everything you’ve learned, and now you’re like officially labeled as a resilient survivor with a lot of influence. How are you applying this in your own home for internet safety?

[00:27:29] Alia: yeah.

[00:27:30] Alia: Well, we start by example. We start by the way that like I conduct myself on social media or that my husband consults, conducts himself on social media, and we don’t post very personal things. Obviously, as a survivor who’s really vocal, I have a lot of my personal things out there already, but I don’t have I don’t, I keep like my.

[00:27:52] My personal life inside my home, very separate from like my survivorship and my,voice in the field. So my pictures of my kids don’t go on social media, full pictures of our family doesn’t go on social media, my husband does the same thing, we keep our private life very private, he uses his social media for work.

[00:28:11] And that’s pretty much it. so that example is set for them, so that’s helpful. But we also have a lot of rules that don’t always make sense to the kids. but that are, we are on the same page with that. We, our kids are not allowed to have social media until they’re 16. So our oldest is coming up on that, and so she’s gonna get to have that.

[00:28:34] The amount of conversations we’ve been able to have with her, you know, up until 16, that’s significant. There’s so many conversations about social media that we’ve been able to have when, before she turns 16 this year, so many things, so many mistakes she’s been able to see her friends make before she ever got on social media.

[00:28:54] so that kind of reinforced some of those things that we’ve told her. We also, don’t have, games where they can, where people can communicate with you, and things like that, so, like, I, we have a nine year old, and, she’s not allowed to have Roblox, and she is devastated, and has been devastated for years, and has asked me for years, and, But I’ve been able to explain to her like this isn’t this isn’t because I don’t want you to have fun like there’s all sorts of other ways that we can have fun, I believe that like this, there’s a risk to your safety with people being able to communicate with you and, and so she understands that and we’ve been able to have like another thing that we’re really for us, that’s really important, is we’ve taught the older two about sextortion, the nine, my nine year old, we haven’t had that conversation with, but the older two know, because that is such an epidemic right now, the sextortion piece, so that, I mean, we can’t control, I can’t control what they do when they’re not in the home.

[00:29:54] Right? And we’re not so naive to think that, like, if she wanted to get social media and hide it from us, they’re smart kids. I’m sure she and my son could do that if they wanted to, and so we, but we have taught them that, this thing happens, where people will pretend to be one thing, or they will be one thing.

[00:30:13] you know, and they will try and blackmail, or, or extort a youth, and I need you to know that if that ever happens to you or your friend, you need to tell us, and we care way more about helping you through that situation than we do about, the consequence that you had social media when you weren’t supposed to.

[00:30:29] and so we have a lot of conversations, about safety, what safety looks like online. and I really believe that like the knowledge is power piece of all of this. Like we’re, we’re, we’ve taught them in an age appropriate way about exploitation and the dangers of the world.

[00:30:44] And, and sometimes they feel like it’s, you know, it’s not like my kids are great with these rules.

[00:30:52] Sandie: Yeah. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Yeah. And that’s going to be one of the things that we’re talking about at Ensure Justice, March 7th and 8th here at Vanguard University. I’m so glad you’re going to be part of that conversation as we sign off, but not for the last time we’ll have more conversations. Tell us how to find you.

[00:31:15] Alia: Yeah, well, you can find me, on at, at everything to do with Safe House Project. Basically via email is my easiest way of communicating, which is just Alia, A L I A @safehouseproject.org. But I’m also on LinkedIn, Alia Azariah, and that’s tends to be the social media and my place of communication and posting that I use the most, and you can find me at Ensure Justice in March too.

[00:31:38] Sandie: Oh, that’s so great. Thank you so much for today, Alia. I look forward to becoming part of your village and you as part of my village.

[00:31:48] Yes, thanks for having me.

[00:31:50] Alia: Thank you for joining us today, Alia. And I’ll see you at Ensure Justice, March 7th and 8th. Listeners, we’re inviting you to take the next step and go over to ending human trafficking.

[00:32:05] Sandie: org to find the resources we’ve mentioned today and to And so much more. If you haven’t visited our site before, take some time, look around at the resources, become a subscriber, and you’ll receive a newsletter with the show notes whenever a new episode drops. And if you’re already a listener, will you write a review to help others find us?

[00:32:35] And of course, follow us on LinkedIn, Facebook, Ending Human Trafficking, Instagram at EHT underscore podcast, stay connected, be part of our community. Of course, I will be back in two weeks.