Sandie is joined by Jeni Sorensen from Poverty Action to discuss research methods and data gathering approaches to help NGO’s evaluate their programs. They look at the different types of data, how to design your research, and existing tools.
- To measure prevention impact, a theory of change and measurement of success should be identified beforehand.
- To measure trainings, identify the goal of the trainings, randomize your audience, and take a pre-test and post-test.
- Qualitative and quantitative data is important to humanize stories and this issue and to determine the efficiency of programs, respectively.
- When gathering data, be sure to only collect data on indicators you actually have time to analyze.
- IPA’s Human Trafficking Research Initiative
- CART Principles
- The Goldilocks Challenge: Right-Fit Evidence for the Social Sector by Mary Kay Gugerty and Dean Karlan
- 2022 Global Estimates of Modern Slavery: Forced Labour and Forced Marriage Report
- 2022 Trafficking in Persons Report | U.S. Department of State
- Seafood Watch | Monterrey Bay Aquarium
- Sweat & Toil (mobile phone app) | U.S. Department of Labor
- Ep. 243 – Ethical Story Telling in Prevention
To get more information about HTRI’s program evaluations or their competitive fund and research funds, contact IPA_HTRI@poverty-action.org.
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Dave [00:00:00] You’re listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. This is episode number 286, How Do We Measure Prevention, with Jeni Sorenson.
Production Credits [00:00:09] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.
Dave [00:00:29] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.
Sandie [00:00:34] And my name is Sandie Morgan.
Dave [00:00:37] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. And of course, a big part of that difference is prevention, right Sandie? We’ve talked about this.
Sandie [00:00:48] Oh, yes! It’s my favorite topic.
Dave [00:00:49] Again and again as we’ve gone forward. And of course, we’re going to come back to this today. I’m so glad to be able to welcome an expert for us to really dive in on this further. Jeni Sorenson is a human trafficking specialist with 20 years of experience designing, managing and evaluating programs to combat human trafficking in the U.S. and around the world. She currently serves as director of IPAs Human Trafficking Research Initiative, which fosters partnerships between researchers and program implementers to build and carry out rigorous research studies. Previously, she served as director of WIN Rock International’s Human Trafficking and Safe Migration Programs, where she oversaw a $70 million portfolio of counter trafficking programs in Asia and Latin America. She holds a B.A. from the University of Texas at Austin and an MPP from Georgetown University. Jeni, what a pleasure to have you on the show.
Jeni [00:01:42] Thank you so much for having me.
Sandie [00:01:43] So I’m really excited. You’re a hero in my ecosystem to use some of the language people are starting to talk about here, and I like to talk about prevention the same way we talk about brushing our teeth. But it’s not very helpful in anti-trafficking because we don’t have an easy way to be able to do every six month checkups with every kid that we give a toothbrush to or that we give something to that we think is going to prevent them from being exploited. I want a vaccine. But prevention in this frame is very challenging to actually measure what we’re doing for real impact. So how would you describe prevention?
Jeni [00:02:41] So I think prevention for human trafficking, I think to really understand and appreciate what’s involved, you need to kind of look at the vulnerabilities of different populations. And so my lens comes more from the international realm because that’s where I focused my efforts. Although Sandie, I know we’ve talked about the U.S. context and the different things that we can do here. But when you’re thinking with any population, really, you want to think about what makes certain groups of people more likely to be vulnerable to human trafficking. So are they more migratory populations? Do they have limited options where they live? In some countries, like in Bangladesh, early marriage is a contributing factor to human trafficking, where women get married off at an early age and they’re less likely to have their health because they’re having children younger, and then they’re also less likely to have different employment options. Another kind of vulnerability could be, we would call it relative deprivation in this field. So are people taking risky paths because they see that their neighbor may have more than them and maybe that neighbor has migrated for work and come back and what they see is someone who has a better house or has a bunch of additional things that they don’t have. And maybe that neighbor hasn’t shared that they had experienced exploitation or trafficking in that journey. So when we’re talking about prevention again, we really want to think about what are the contributing factors, and then how can we address those factors to and propose interventions so that we can make people more secure where they are or if they choose to migrate for opportunities? That’s absolutely a logical decision that many people make. But if they choose to migrate for work, how can we help protect them? What protective factors can we give them? What kind of information can we give them? So some of the things in prevention, we see a lot of different approaches to helping these communities. And some of those are, for example, providing financial stability. So you might be looking at loans or in-kind grants or cash transfers to communities. They might be providing livelihood interventions or trainings, job trainings, and again, information provision. So providing access to resources for people who have migrated may find that they’re in situations of exploitation. But the big picture for the U.S. and for any other country in the world that where people are migrating to or trying to find additional opportunities for themselves is what legal systems and international laws are in place. And then are they set up to protect migrants and provide legal aid, provide support for worker rights? And that’s kind of the major prevention context that we would be looking at for human trafficking.
Sandie [00:05:10] So when I sit at a table with my colleagues and we start talking about those vulnerabilities that increase someone’s risk of being exploited, we always have wonderful ideas, like the microloans, like the skills building, resilience, all of those things. But we often start off with a great idea and then we don’t really know how to measure if we’re actually having any measurable, real impact. So what does that look like in your world?
Jeni [00:05:48] Yeah. So measuring prevention activities is really hard because it’s hard to measure the absolutes of something. So, if you’re preventing human trafficking, you can’t say this thing didn’t happen, or you can, but it is complex. I should take a step back and say you can actually measure that. You can kind of take intermediate steps to look at what you’re doing. And so what I would say is if you’re interested in working on combating this issue and you want to work on the prevention side, then you should look at what is the thing you are trying to change. And so it’s really important to put into place your theory of change. And so you’re saying this is happening, this is happening, and so this is what we’re going to do. And so you’re putting a set of interventions in place, and this is the result that you think you’re going to see. And so then you try to measure that and you need to think about how are you measuring the interventions that you’re proposing and how are you identifying what is success from this? So a lot of interimmediate steps we look at are how many trainings have you implemented or how many people have access to loans or thinking about those kinds of process or programmatic measurements. And those are important just to, again, make sure that if you have a program to prevent trafficking, that the program you have is actually doing the thing you think it’s going to do. So you’ve got donor funds or government funds, and you want to make sure that you’re providing the services that you said that you would do. But then to gauge the impact of that is kind of another step forward from there. And so once you have an idea for an intervention, you think that it works really well, then you need to be putting into place, we would suggest an impact evaluation. And so where I work, it’s called Innovations for Poverty Action and we’re a research focused NGO. And the main thing that we focus on is called randomized controlled trials or impact evaluations. And it’s a specific kind of research model where you randomize populations for your target populations and then you say, okay, this population or these people are going to get this intervention and these people aren’t. And so you have a control group and a treatment group and you can have multiple treatment groups. But what you’re trying to measure is what would have happened in the absence of this intervention. So then you can really say with statistical rigor that the program that you implemented actually did have an impact. And you can show that because you can show that there’s a control group that didn’t get the intervention. There’s a treatment group that got the intervention. And you were able to use really highly specialized measurements to look at the difference between those two populations. And it’s hard, again, if you’re not randomized at the beginning, it’s really hard to say whether what you did had an impact. You can show what happened with the population you worked with, but again, you don’t know what would have happened in the absence of that program. So we really try to promote the use of these impact evaluations for kind of more mature interventions with groups that have been doing this for a while. We’re lucky in the human trafficking realm that there are groups that have been doing this for 20 years, 30 years. And so we really want to help those groups to show what kind of impact they’re having.
Sandie [00:08:45] So this brings up a couple of different questions for me. First of all, you gave an example of doing trainings, and my experience has led me to question some what I see as impact reports, air quotes, that are based on how many trainings we did, how many people attended the training. And so I don’t know that the training that that NGO did is equivalent to the training that this government agency did. And so then just measuring activity may not actually give me any kind of insight on what actually happened.
Jeni [00:09:34] Right? Yeah. I mean, with trainings, what you really want to be thinking about is what are the things that you’re trying to get from the training. So in behavioral science, a lot of economists have these studies that look at behavioral economics. And so are you making measurable changes to knowledge attitudes and practices? And there are ways you can measure that. So if you’re working with police officers, for example, and you’re trying to provide them with training on victim-centered interview processes, you can look at what were their attitudes, what was their knowledge of these practices before the training? And then you can look at the knowledge and attitudes after the training that would be called a pretest and the post-test. So you would at least get an additional layer of information rather than just saying this many people went to these many trainings, but again, you would be getting a little bit more rich information, pretest and post-test. But then if you really wanted to assess the impact of those trainings, you would randomize who got the trainings and who didn’t. And again, take a measurement of the groups before the trainings and then after the trainings. And then you could see really whether the trainings had a short term impact in the practices of the police or did they have a long term impact of the practices? Because, again, changing knowledge and attitudes is kind of an intermediate step. And then what you’re really trying to do with these trainings is to help police be better at their jobs, working with, for example, survivors of trafficking or victims of trafficking going through the criminal justice process.
Sandie [00:10:57] Okay. So then my second question is around this concept of randomized groups. So I’m working a lot with children and schools. And so when you mention this idea that we give it to some and not to others, oh, my gosh, it’s like, well, that’s not fair. So tell me what to say.
Jeni [00:11:23] That’s absolutely true. So one thing to think about, though, is when you say it’s not fair, you know, we wouldn’t be testing these interventions if we knew that they were successful. If we know something’s happening and it’s going to help people, then we’re just going to do it. But how do we know at this point whether the things that we’re doing are successful or not? And I think that’s with human trafficking. That’s the stage that we’re still in. We’re still trying to build the evidence base to examine the programs that we’re implementing and to make sure that they are impactful and they’re working in the way that we think they are. So that’s one thing to say. If you’re giving survivor services to some people and not others, or if you’re changing the different kinds of services you’re giving, you don’t know yet whether one is more effective than the other, but you don’t want to withhold services completely. That would be unethical. So that’s not something that we would promote. But you can be providing different kinds of services and testing those and then see what are the impact of those. In the case of schools, that is trickier because you are working with minors, but again, you don’t know whether these programs that are being implemented in the schools. For example, I think there are some programs in the U.S. where they’re working with different school districts. What you could do and what one of our partners under HTI, the Human Trafficking Research Initiative, we are working with the Freedom Fund and they’re starting a program in Brazil where they’re working in Recife with a school district there and they’re randomizing which schools get a counter trafficking and counter sexual exploitation of children training first. So there’s a kind of cohort of schools that are going to get this training first in this school year and then in the next school year, the remaining, what is the control group, will change into the treatment group and they will get that same training. So again, we’re trying not to withhold this information from anyone, but we are delaying the intervention by a year. So some schools will get it the first year and the rest of the schools will get it the second year. And that’s kind of how life works, right? We always have a limited amount of resources, a limited number of places that we can be implementing programs because donor funding is finite and we kind of have to choose our priorities. And so this is one way in which you can still reach the same number of people and you just delay the program and then everyone gets the treatment.
Sandie [00:13:30] So how can people follow that kind of research? They just go to your website.
Jeni [00:13:35] Yeah, it’s called PovertyAction.org and it’s called the Human Trafficking Research Initiative. So we’re on the website and so you can track our research there. And we also work with other partner organizations in promoting this research. IPA’s program, HTI, is kind of one of the first programs that’s gotten major funding for randomized controlled trials. So we’re just starting to set the evidence based. So as the results of our research come out, we’ll be disseminating that more widely. But definitely you can go to PovertyAction.org.
Sandie [00:14:07] Yeah. So I just want people to know that website. We’ll put links in our show notes, too. So let’s kind of go back to how we understand measuring and let’s talk about monitoring and evaluation of programs, because in prevention we do start with we don’t want any exploitation, any kind of bad experience. But if someone has already, we can intermediate somehow and prevent further. So that’s still on the continuum of prevention. I’m not making it really clear, but we try to do programs that are directed at kids, women, men, international, for national victims that would try to intervene. And we make beautiful storyboards of one person’s story. What’s the difference between calling that impact and then actually having a well developed program?
Jeni [00:15:11] So, I think it’s really important to say that there’s value in both. I would call it qualitative and quantitative data. And so the qualitative and the stories are what resonate with us as human beings. And it’s what helps us to understand, to make someone a real person instead of just a figure. And so, I think that there’s definitely value in the stories that are promoted and that kind of anecdotal evidence that people get from these programs. And I think that it’s really important for organizations working in this field to continue to really humanize people who are going through this process and who have been exploited in this way because it’s really terrible. And we do need to get the word out on that.
Sandie [00:15:52] And let me just interject very quickly here that we have addressed ethical storytelling in this podcast, and we really encourage people to go back and listen to some of those because I really agree people are very responsive to that. But we want to go further.
Jeni [00:16:11] Yes. Yeah. Again, and the personal stories, especially if we’re letting survivors kind of lead those stories. I’ve been lucky to learn from some organizations that have given video cameras or recording equipment to survivors and kind of just let them lead their own monetary valuation processes and to share their stories in the way that they choose. And I think it’s really important to make survivors the center of these kinds of programs. I’m sorry to say that to date, there have been a lot of programs that have been designed without really consulting with survivors. And there’s definitely a big shift happening there. You can see the most current U.S. Trafficking in Persons report that was put out by the U.S. State Department earlier this year. There are a lot of stories at the beginning about how to involve survivors and survivor leadership. And so that’s a really important part of the field for us now. But again, to try to get beyond that anecdotal data or the one off stories about people and their experiences. Again, we kind of need to know for those people and the services that they were offered. If they were offered cognitive behavioral therapy or yoga therapy or access to job services. What were the the things that were key in the success of those programs? And what were the things that maybe weren’t impactful or weren’t effective? And again, kind of testing those out through impact evaluations and rigorous research can help us to identify again what are the most successful strategies and what are the most cost effective strategies? Because some things, especially with service provision, can be quite expensive. And we don’t want to be using up a lot of our resources for things that aren’t working.
Sandie [00:17:43] Okay. So, if someone has been leading a really wonderful nonprofit, maybe a faith based group, and they’ve never had any training in monitoring and evaluation of their programs, where would they start to learn how to begin to implement that?
Jeni [00:18:05] That’s a great question. So selfishly, I would say that Innovations for Poverty Action has some resources for that. We have a book called The Goldilocks Challenge, and it lays out the CART principles which are all focused around what kind of program data do you need to gather, and it’s about collecting accurate information and the right information that’s kind of geared towards the program and the impacts that you want to see–or not, sorry, not impacts–but the outcomes and outputs that you want to see. So what is the responsible use of data and then kind of targeting the right kind of data? So I would argue at a minimum, you want to set up a monitoring and evaluation structure where you have at least a few indicators where, you know, you’re tracking your information, your data from your program, you’re kind of drilling down on what are the things that you’re doing. And again, how do you measure those? And then tracking those over time to see again, are you doing the thing that you think you’re doing? Are you doing maybe something different? What is your program model? And those are kind of the building blocks for beginning to get a handle on what the programs people are implementing and then how to evaluate the impact of those programs.
Sandie [00:19:12] Okay. You caught my attention when you said responsible use of data. So now it’s like I need to know what you call irresponsible use of data.
Jeni [00:19:23] I would say if you have 50 indicators that you’re trying to track, you’re spending probably all of your time running around trying to get those numbers. Do you have time to analyze the numbers? Do you have time to look at those and say, oh, I’m learning this from from the numbers that I’m getting from the program that I’m implementing. It’s hard to have time to evaluate and assess the success of your program if you’re spending all your time getting information that you’re not using, you’re not analyzing, you’re not using to make your program better or to adjust the program in a different direction. I would say that would definitely be an irresponsible use.
Sandie [00:19:57] Okay, that’s good. I bet you have a longer list, but we’ll move on. Okay. We talked before. We talk every chance we get about what this looks like in labor trafficking as well. And you talked to me about micro-workers. Can you give me some examples? Because I am convinced that we have not been spending enough attention on prevention of labor trafficking.
Jeni [00:20:30] Yeah. And I think this is something that we’ve talked about where, especially, again, in the U.S., there’s a lot of a focus on sex trafficking. And maybe it just kind of resonates with people, and it’s kind of more of a shiny issue. But actually the scope of labor trafficking is much larger in the U.S. and abroad. And so I don’t know if your listeners have seen or know about the global estimates on modern slavery, but the International Labor Organization, the ILO, which is a U.N. organization and Walk Free, they put out global estimates every few years and the latest ones just came out a few months ago. So we can say that what they estimated for people in modern slavery in 2021 was 49.6 million people. Of that, they said 27.6 million were in forced labor and 6.3 million were in forced commercial sexual exploitation. So you can see that’s an order of magnitude smaller than forced labor. And in the U.S., again, that’s something that we see a lot of focus here in Orange County, California, where you and I live. The police department, they kind of know how to investigate sex trafficking. They know where to find the johns, the traffickers, and so they’ve got a pretty good system set up for that. But they’re not looking as much at forced labor and labor exploitation. And so it’s really important for us to see that it’s kind of a hidden problem. But it’s really great in scope here and internationally. And some of the things that we need to be doing to make it untenable or unprofitable is to make sure that our systems are set up so that there are enough, for example, labor inspectorates or labor inspectors in workplaces. Again, in the U.S., we know that some of the hotspots for forced labor are in nail salons, restaurants, in the fields. Again, in California, we have a lot of that. And so making sure that there are enough people investigating the crime and flushing out the potential instances of trafficking there.
Sandie [00:22:23] We’ve started having some conversations on the podcast about shifting the burden to business, to corporate leadership. So what have you seen in that kind of responsiveness?
Jeni [00:22:36] Yeah. So, when Iraq International, my previous position, we did some work with the private sector, again focused on labor trafficking. And what I noticed in my time there was that there was more of a shift of the companies focusing on forced labor and labor trafficking as an issue for their corporate social responsibility unit and setting it off as a separate unit in their companies and thinking, Oh, this is something that our warm, fuzzy people will deal with and talk with NGOs and governments about this. And really starting to recognize that forced labor and human trafficking was a central issue in their business operations. And so moving their points of contact and the people working on this, I saw a shift in people starting to move that to the human resources team and the procurement team and getting more of a real buy in from the company and looking at all aspects of their labor chains and their supply chains and realizing that they needed to address mitigation, put into place mitigation, and observation and other systems in all of their corporate dealings, not just, again, with the corporate social responsibility wing of their business.
Sandie [00:23:49] That’s really encouraging. We interviewed Ben Skinner about that last year and Ambassador John Cotton Richmond. We’re really following the impact of the Uyghur Prevention Act. And so I feel like we’re going to have some data that will help us convince more of our corporate partners to focus on this. And that’s exciting because labor trafficking, as you mentioned from that report a few months ago, is actually increasing. I’m not sure that I agree that it’s increasing as much as I agree that we are doing a much better job finding it, identifying it. What do you think?
Jeni [00:24:38] Yeah, I would say that, too. That’s one of the key quandaries of this field is the more that you increase awareness, the more you see the numbers go up. But sometimes it’s because people start to identify themselves as trafficking victims. And so I think it’s logical that we would see a bump in the numbers. I think that they said it was a 10 million increase from the last estimates. But I agree, it could be just that there’s better global awareness of this issue.
Sandie [00:25:02] So I know I’ve got students and alums and partners around the world who are going to really knuckle down and look at more rigorous research in this area. But I also have a lot of people who are not researchers, but they want to participate in prevention and in the research. So can you give us some help in identifying ways to do that?
Jeni [00:25:29] Yeah. I mean, you mentioned former Ambassador Richmond earlier and I was lucky to be at one of the Ensure Justice conference is where he spoke. And what resonated with me was where he said, if you want to be involved, you can become an accountant. You can work in HR. There’s so many ways to be involved. You don’t just have to be a researcher. You don’t just have to be an NGO implementer. You don’t even have to work in a government. I think we all have a role to play in working on prevention of human trafficking, and there are so many ways that you can contribute. So I would say you can work in this field in a million different ways. You can work with foster youth. There’s so many ways to do it. So, yeah, I encourage everyone to just try to think of a way and if I can, Sandie, tell them to reach out to us if they if they want to know how to get involved.
Sandie [00:26:14] Well, and for me, it always comes back to education at every level. And I love how young parents are starting to talk to their kids about the products that come into their home and using some of the resources that have been developed, like the Sweat and Toil app on your phone, so that when you go shopping, you can actually find out and your kids can see this tiny little hand that a child may have been picking those bananas or harvesting those blueberries. And I think building that kind of empathy into the next generation creates a different paradigm that gives me hope. You told me about a project at Monterey Aquarium that I want my listeners to hear about.
Jeni [00:27:08] Yeah. Yeah. And this came up because I have some family visiting and my stepmother is a vegetarian. So my son and I were talking about the difference between pescatarian and vegetarians and then talking about the responsible use of meat and seafood and started to talk about how overwhelming it can be to try to make sure that you’re a conscious consumer. Because another thing you can do, you can work in any field, but you can vote with your dollars and try to buy clothes that are sustainably produced and not using forced labor. And again, with fish, not eating fish that are made under forced labor conditions and not environmentally sustainable. But it’s really challenging to know how to do that. And you can’t turn it into a part time job of trying to figure that out. And so one one resource you mentioned Sweat and Toil app from DOL is great. Another one is the Seafood Watch. You can look at it on your website or there’s an app as well from the Monterey Aquarium. And that’s another way for you to kind of look at which kind of seafood you’re eating and what are the conditions under which it’s probably being raised or farmed and caught from the seas and then making your decisions about how you’re going to eat and what you’re going to eat in that way. And there are some efforts right now to improve labor conditions on boats at sea. So there’s a lot that’s happening right now. And the field is constantly changing. But there are actors like Monterey Aquarium, like DOL, that are trying to be that interface between consumers and the human trafficking world.
Sandie [00:28:32] Wow. I know I have friends in DOL who are really careful about ordering shrimp at a restaurant because where did it come from? That’s one of the things we know a lot about, but there are so many things that we don’t have information on. So I just want to reaffirm what you said from the Ensure Justice conference when Ambassador Richmond was talking about career choices. I really believe that we need a very interdisciplinary approach to careers, but also to the research agenda. And while I’m very focused on the prevention piece, there are lots of other ways that you as a listener, as a part of this community, can get involved in the research. And so we’ve got a minute left. And so, Jeni, you can bring us home with your information and how you see people in everyday life getting involved.
Jeni [00:29:41] Yeah, I think that, like I said, everyone has a role to play. And so whether you’re looking at your role as a consumer, as a professional, as a student, it’s really important to just keep an eye on the things that you’re doing and trying to make sure that you are acting in a responsible way that’s light on the earth, that is beneficial to people. And again, trying to bring it back to the work that Sandie and I do, we’re helping to build an evidence base, we hope, on what can what can people do to combat trafficking and prevent it from happening so that we can live in a world where people aren’t exploited in this way?
Sandie [00:30:16] And how do we reach you?
Jeni [00:30:18] You can reach me if you go to the poverty- action.org website and look under human trafficking. I am there. It’s called the Human Trafficking Research Initiative. And we’ll again, we’ll be building. We have blog posts, we have project summaries, we are sharing information. And we also have a competitive fund where if you are a researcher listening to this or implementing organization and you would like to have your programs evaluated, you can reach out to us through the website or at IPA_HTRI@poverty-action.org. And I hope we’ll link this in the podcast notes and you can reach us through that and we can share information about our competitive fund and the research funds we have available for this.
Sandie [00:30:59] Thank you so much, Jeni. I am very encouraged that our community is going to grow not only in our awareness, but in how we are more strategic in addressing rigorous research. So thank you for being with us and I’ll see you at Ensure Justice.
Jeni [00:31:16] Lovely. Thank you so much, Sandie and Dave.
Dave [00:31:19] You know, I was thinking about our conversation and Jeni’s invitation to, regardless of what your skill set is, is to find a way to help out. Sandie, I was thinking about we started this podcast over a decade ago. I knew very little about the challenges of human trafficking, but I knew a lot about technology and podcasts and utilize that to help you to get your message out and to support the board. And I think almost all of us have something that we can do to latch on, to grab the handle, as you often say. And so we’d invite you to take that first step, too. Go online. If you’re looking for the place that you think you might be able to help us out and download a copy of Sandie’s guide, The Five Things You Must Know: A Quick Start Guide to Ending Human Trafficking. It’ll highlight the five critical things Sandie’s identified that you should know before you join the fight against trafficking. You can get access to it by going over to endinghumantrafficking.org. Also building and expanding our community of advocates. If you’d like to become a patron, you can access exclusive content and join a community of advocates around the world who are also working together to fight human trafficking. You can find details over at endinghumantrafficking.org. Click on the patron link that you’ll find up there and you’ll find a ton of details on how to go further. You can support the show for $5 a month and get access to all of the Patreon benefits. In addition, we mentioned the Ensure Justice conference coming up March 3rd and 4th, 2023. Details are at GCWJ.org/ensurejustice. Of course, you can also get there just by going to endinghumantrafficking.org. And we will be back for our next conversation in two weeks. Thanks, Jeni, and thanks, Sandie, as always.