276 – Nonprofit Leadership, with Coaching for Leaders host Dave Stachowiak

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Sandie Morgan and Dave Stachowiak discuss how to navigate being a leader and making change during and post COVID. Dave gives tips on balancing leadership roles, how to grow as a leader, and early foundational tips for starting a nonprofit.

Dave Stachowiak

Dave is the host and founder of Coaching for Leaders, a top-rated management podcast downloaded 25 million times. With more than 15 years of leadership at Dale Carnegie and a thriving, global leadership academy, he helps leaders discover practical wisdom, build meaningful relationships, and create movement for genuine results. Dave is also founder of the Coaching for Leaders Academy, a year-long leadership development cohort. His credentials include a doctoral degree in organizational leadership from Pepperdine University, several international business leadership awards from Dale Carnegie, and graduation from Coach U. He also serves on the board of the Global Center for Women & Justice at Vanguard University and co-hosts the Ending Human Trafficking podcast with longtime friend, Sandie Morgan.

Key Points

  • Leaders in nonprofits balance: 1)Leading the organizations mission and big picture; and 2) Managing the complex day-to-day organizational management
  • Having a community and partnering with others in the same field can be beneficial for leaders to gain new skills and learn from people who are working in the same sphere and similar roles.
  • Nonprofit leaders, or individuals who want to become leaders, need to distinguish between what feels good in the moment and what is actually good for the movement.
  • Building a strong team and knowing how and what to delegate is key to sustainability.


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Dave [00:00:00] You’re listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. This is episode number 276, Nonprofit Leadership with Coaching for Leaders host, Dave Stachowiak. Hey, that’s me.

Production Credits [00:00:12] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave [00:00:31] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie [00:00:37] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave [00:00:39] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Sandie, every two weeks we get together, we have a fabulous guest on who’s an expert in some area to help us. Today you just have outdone yourself with the guest you have found. I am so impressed.

Sandie [00:00:57] Oh, my goodness, Dave, I’m so excited to tell everybody that my guest is Dave Stachowiak. Yay. And let me just do, be a little bit formal here. His bio: Dave is the host and founder of Coaching for Leaders, a top rated management podcast downloaded 25 million times with more than 15 years of leadership at Dale Carnegie and a thriving Global Leadership Academy, he helps leaders discover practical wisdom, build meaningful relationships, and create movement for genuine results. Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast, Dave.

Dave [00:01:44] What a pleasure to be here. I feel like I’ve been here before somehow.

Sandie [00:01:49] Well, you’re the founder of the Coaching for Leaders Academy as well, and you have been developing leadership cohorts. You pull together groups of managers, executives, business owners and work with them personally. You’ve invited me to meet some of them and they’ve brainstormed and asked me questions. But ultimately you help them develop their leadership excellence and empower them and building relationships. And while you have an impressive pedigree of credentials–a doctoral degree in organizational leadership from Pepperdine and lots of leadership awards–my favorite thing about you is that you serve on the board of the Global Center for Women and Justice and co-host the Ending Human Trafficking podcast with me. And I suddenly realized just a week or so ago when I was talking to some of my colleagues, we’re all nonprofit leaders. We’re all struggling in the process of emerging from COVID. And this is the time when we need to make change. We aren’t really sure how to make change, but we’re probably going to be more willing to change right now than any other time in the recent past or distant future. So I thought, I need to ask Dave to do an interview because I always refer people to the Coaching for Leaders podcast. But our community really needs some support and skill in managing leadership from a nonprofit perspective. So thank you for saying yes.

Dave [00:03:48] Well, I am honored, of course. It has been such a pleasure to co-host the show with you for the last 11 years and to serve on the board and to learn so much about I’m trying to even capture how much I’ve learned about you, or from you rather about nonprofit work and the service you have done and you continue to do through the Global Center. There’s so much. And all the guests we’ve had on the show have been such wonderful teachers for me in so many ways. And so I was sharing with you before we started recording, I’m not an expert on nonprofit leadership at all. Much of what I’ve learned in the nonprofit world is actually from you and from the guests on our show. And yet there are some core elements of leadership and management that I do think broadly are true for all leaders across all organizations. And then I think there’s some things that are especially true in the work so many of us are are trying to do, which is to end human trafficking, the title of the show. And so I’m really honored to be part of this conversation. Thank you for the invitation.

Sandie [00:04:51] Well, you are very welcome. And let’s dive right in, because some of the biggest challenges right now for leaders in nonprofit anti-human trafficking work are around wearing more than one hat. So, for instance, I’m the director of the Global Center for Women and Justice. I also wear the development hat and negotiating that sustainable fundraising for keeping the big ship afloat at the same time overseeing all of our programs and our initiatives. I sometimes really struggle with balance.

Dave [00:05:35] Yeah, indeed. And I think there’s two big things that come to mind for me, Sandie, when I think about having a role like you do. One is the what’s always true. And then one is, the second thing is, what’s true right now. And the thing that’s always true and will continue to be true is needing to wear so many different hats. If you are a nonprofit leader, and especially if you have a title like CEO or executive director or president or whatever, the top role is within the organization. Because often that person is asked to do a lot for the organization that the organization needs. And like so many nonprofits, there are limited resources, there’s limited funding, there’s limited staff, and yet there is not limited things to do that the organization needs. And there’s two things that I think are really, really critical for every leader and a third that also is probably uniquely true for nonprofit leaders. And the two things I think are true for every leader is the ability to lead with a vision and to handle change well and to decide where the organization’s going. That’s what leadership really is. When I think of the distinction between leadership and management, leadership is answering the question of change and the world is always changing around us. This what’s happening with this issue is always changing. A good leader, an effective leader needs to be able to answer that question of where are we going, what are we changing, and how are we inspiring people to go in the direction that we need to go? And then the second piece of that is the management piece. In any organization of any size, there’s complexity and management answers the question of complexity. Who is doing this work? What does this role entail? What are the metrics, the quality metrics we’re trying to hit? What is the deadline we are working to? What is the operating budget we need to work within? Those are operational management questions that need to be answered on a pretty daily basis in almost every organization. And the thing is, is those two things are, I think, really different, Sandie, that on one hand, you are thinking big and you’re thinking about change and inspiring people. On another hand, you’re thinking about how do I work within today’s budget and the operational things?

Sandie [00:08:00] And it feels like you were watching me at my desk yesterday because I come back from a visionary conference in Texas last week with leaders from across the nation. And I’m sitting down working on the day-to-day budget to make sure that I can fund the next activity. When you say complexity, I think there are things that I didn’t know I needed to manage that I should be managing. And what do you think, and you know me pretty well, some of those complexities that are just not on my radar? I think I have friends in the nonprofit anti-human trafficking space that we are missing a few things that might make our journey a little more stable. How would we learn what to do in that management role?

Dave [00:08:56] Yeah, it’s a hard one, Sandie. And this is where I think nonprofit leaders are probably at a little bit of a disadvantage because this is the kind of thing that I think if you’ve worked in the for profit world or you’ve worked in a large institution before and you have that experience, you have picked up some of this along the way, especially if you’ve had a title like manager or director or executive or whatever the title was at the time. And you’ve probably picked up some skills in how to give feedback, and how to run a meeting, and how to outline a person’s role, and how to navigate difficult conversations when they come up. But if you’ve never had that experience, if you founded an organization and started to build a nonprofit and you haven’t had that prior management experience, I think that’s really that’s a big hurdle for a lot of and it’s a big hurdle for managers who have a lot of support around them in training for that. I think it’s perhaps a bigger hurdle for some nonprofit leaders who haven’t had that exposure. And I think it’s this is where community and partnership is really, really helpful. So one example of that, Sandie, is I, you know, in my work in hosting a podcast and running an online business, which is essentially what we are today, there are not a lot of people prior to me doing that that were in my network that were doing that kind of a thing, because this is a relatively new thing in the world that, you know, someone hosts a podcast and has an online business like that wasn’t something people did 20 years ago. This is this is all new. And so I took it upon myself early on to reach out to other people who were doing the kind of work I was doing. Other people hosting podcasts. Other people who were running businesses that were mostly or entirely online and starting to build relationships and having conversations with them. In fact, I meet every month with a group of other folks who run podcasts in the careers leadership management space, and we support each other and we challenge each other and we ask each other’s questions and we help each other to see some of the blind spots that we wouldn’t see otherwise. And I think that that’s a really useful thing to do if you haven’t had a lot of that experience before. And I think the other helpful thing to do, Sandie, to get back to your point of like, you know, sitting down like, okay, I get to figure out the next thing operationally is it’s really helpful to be conscious of what hat you’re wearing at any given time. So that today might be a leadership day for me. I am spending time thinking about the future I’m planning. I’m maybe reaching out to other organizations. I’m thinking about the big picture. And tomorrow, or maybe this next meeting is a manager. I need to put my management hat on and get really down into the details of what are we doing operationally in a specific project that we’re working on. And I think for most of us, I know I put I change hats almost multiple times a day, it seems like. And I think that’s true for most leaders in most organizations that, you know, if you if you work for a really large enterprise and there’s tons of management layers, I mean, you might do more of one than the other fairly regularly. But I think for most nonprofits, especially in most small to medium size businesses, I think many of us are wearing those different hats pretty regularly. And this brings me to my third point, which is I think there’s another piece of this in the nonprofit world that’s a little different than working in a for profit organization is that you constantly have to have an eye to fundraising and development work that I think a lot of traditional managers in the for profit world don’t always have, unless that’s literally their role within the organization if their chief revenue officer or whatever. I don’t think they have to think about quite as often, and I think that this is surprising to a lot of nonprofit leaders who get in a role like executive director or president, and they realize very quickly how important that is as a nonprofit leader to either spend time and resources to be good at that yourself or to partner with someone else within the organization, to delegate some of that work, to have a strong second person who’s really able to take the lead on many of those development types of activities inside the organization. Those are three big things that I think are always true for nonprofit leaders. And then there’s a what’s true right now and I was at the dentist this morning, Sandie, and I have been wearing a night guard in my mouth for something like 20 years because I grind my teeth at night; it’s just a genetic thing. And so my dentist years ago said, you know, you need to start wearing a night guard because you’re just going to grind out, you know, fillings and you’re you’re going to damage your teeth. And I went in today because I had to have mine redone and we got to talking about it. And he said, you know, I think everyone should wear a night guard. It’s like good for your teeth. But he was telling me I don’t normally recommend it to people because I don’t want people to feel like I’m just trying to sell them something. So I wait to see, you know, if there’s an indicator where they really need it. But he said the most interesting thing has happened in these last two years. Two years ago, I would do one of these night guards a month. He says, now, after COVID, I’m doing one a day. And he said, the difference is the stress. It’s all the normal things that we all deal with in life. And now it is COVID, it is all the things that are happening in the news, all the stress of the pandemic. And he said, I’m seeing so many more people that are carrying so much more stress and I’m seeing physically how thats showing up just in our numbers as far as like what we’re doing here in the office of taking care of people’s health. And I think that’s a real present and cautionary thing for all of us to be mindful of, of that in many places and many organizations, we are under a tremendous amount of stress right now because of what has happened in the last two years and because of burnout and because of anxiety that so many of us are dealing with ourselves, but we’re seeing a lot in our organizations. And I think it’s just a really hard time to lead any size organization. And that all goes into this as well too.

Sandie [00:15:08] So that, I love that. Always and right now. And the right now for me is I learned some great skills for leading the Global Center for Women and Justice. And I’m using the same patterns, the same activities, and not getting the same results. And every time the feedback in real time comes to me I realize I have to adjust my expectations and change what I define as success. And I started watching my colleagues. And I think one of our biggest risks right now is discouragement.

Dave [00:15:52] Yes.

Sandie [00:15:53] Because we are not seeing the same responses to what we did really well and we’re recognized for. The fundraising piece hasn’t changed. It’s the same always and right now. And I’ve tried to find ways to, you know, give that hat to somebody else. But there seems to be a really organic link for a nonprofit leader with that fundraising piece. And I find that when it becomes mechanical and it’s just something somebody does this and they send out this many letters or whatever, the results are widely varied. But when I’m doing it, I’m like planting seeds for the next harvest, so to speak. And I’m very intentional about going towards relationships long term, not the short term, and I don’t know how to delegate that.

Dave [00:17:02] Yeah, and I’m so glad you mention this, because I think it’s really helpful in a larger nonprofit, large organization to have someone who’s dedicated to do this. You can delegate some of this work too. But to your point, if you’re the executive director of a nonprofit, this is still a big part of your job. It doesn’t matter how big your team is, how talented the people are, I think it’s essential that you are the person who is able to be the spokesperson who’s developing the relationships, because even if there’s other people with that skill on your team, and I think in many organizations that’s ideal if you can do that. The way the world works as folks expect the number one person to be an advocate for their organization and they expect to have that relationship if they’re going to have a financial relationship with the organization. And so I think that that’s really key. I don’t think you can delegate all of it. And this gets to a little bit more of the management versus leadership parts of how do you define what are the things you can delegate, what are the administrative things that can be done by somebody else, but what are the things that you should never delegate? And whenever I’m working with leaders, one of the things I’m trying to help them to determine is what are the things that you do that uniquely can only be done by you in the organization. That really are the relationships that you uniquely have, need to have, that the vision that you uniquely can help articulate. And the goal of delegating part of it is to free up more of your time to do those things that other people can’t do. And relationships like you just described, Sandie, are one of those. And so part of that’s looking of where can I, when I’m delegating, where can I hand some things off that can be delegated? And then how can I free up more time for those relationships, for planting the seeds, like you said, to really have the longevity into the future. And that’s a huge, huge distinction for folks.

Sandie [00:18:54] So that kind of leads into my next question because I realized I need to develop those skills. And when I started this, everybody was excited and lots of organizations there started because everybody wants to end human trafficking because of the horrific crime that it is to sell human beings. But now we have a lot of energy and learning those skills to delegate, to make some course corrections on the management side so that it is sustainable just from an operations perspective. Where does someone start? I’m sure you probably have two or three Coaching for Leader recommendations.

Dave [00:19:41] Well, there’s a distinction for me on what feels good and what does good. And I’ve learned a lot of this from you, Sandie, of watching you and your work and talking to so many of the experts here on the show over the years. Is there’s a lot of things that feel good in the moment of, for example, rescuing survivors, of seeing someone go to jail or be charged with a crime. All of those are parts, obviously, of addressing this issue of ending human trafficking. And those are the kinds of things that you see sometimes. I know you’ve seen this a million times, like people starting an organization, very well-intended, who want to rescue victims and want to, you know, chase down the people who are doing evil in the world. And sometimes they end up actually making the situation harder for law enforcement, for community partners, for others who have already put in a foundation and thought this through really well of how can we show up in a way that is sustainable and is actually going to address the issue in the long run. And so I think one of the starting points is making sure you have a really clear distinction from a leadership standpoint of what what might feel good in the moment and where am I actually doing good. And I think that that starts with, like you say, study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference. Those are in that order for a reason. Study the issues first is understand before you start a nonprofit, before you start going out in the community and doing work and being an advocate of going and showing up like here in Orange County to the task force and finding out who else is already doing work, what other organizations are already there? What can I do to maybe not start another organization, but to come alongside the people who are already doing the work, who actually need someone with your talents, to be on their staff, to be the person that they delegate to, or maybe to be the person who’s doing the development work, or maybe to be the person that comes alongside and volunteers inside an existing organization, or to show up in some of those conversations and to hear three or four or five times that, here’s a missing need in our community right now. And the nonprofit that maybe you were thinking about that would have started a shelter, that it turns out there’s already several other people doing that, but that there isn’t a nonprofit doing education in the community. And you hear from law enforcement and from legal folks and from advocates that there’s a need for that in the community right now. What a wonderful gift for you then to show up in maybe a different way than you were originally intending, but to actually do something to bring something to the community that is needed and valued right now. And so I think that it starts there of are you actually aligning with the need or are you just doing something that feels good. And we all want to feel good, right? And sometimes the thing that feels good really does align with the need. But I think that we should be really careful. I know I think about volunteer work, Sandie, and giving the charity much differently than I did, you know, 11, 12 years ago before you and I started talking regularly because I think about, you know, where can I come along, work and support of time and resources actually be helpful versus I just make a donation or I volunteer somewhere just because it makes me feel good. And I think that’s a really key distinction at the early start of the process to be able to step back. And I don’t think you can get there if you haven’t done things like read your book, go to a task force meeting or several, go talk to the other people who are doing the work in your area, listening to a show like this. Because that opens up your eyes and your perspective to see things that you otherwise wouldn’t see.

Sandie [00:23:35] I really appreciate how you work in the collaborative nature of nonprofit leadership in the anti-human trafficking space, because I have seen so many organizations try to do all of it and they often end up in a space where they’re really good at one piece of it and not so good at other pieces. And wouldn’t it be more effective in the long run for the whole community and especially for victims and survivors if we were able to let go of trying to control the whole scenario? That might mean that a director, a CEO of a nonprofit would actually need to revise their mission statement and their goal to narrow it to what they are good at and where they can fit into the need.

Dave [00:24:35] Yeah, indeed. I mean, if you look at any good sustainable business, and a nonprofit is a business, it’s not a for profit business, but it’s a business as in there’s revenue, there’s expenses. If you want to do good in the world, you need to have the resources and the structure to be able to do that well. Any sustainable organization has a very clear vision of what they’re doing, and by virtue of that, also doesn’t try to do everything. History is littered with tons of examples of organizations that tried to be the end all, be all for everybody, but organizations that have a very clear vision of what we’re trying to do and and that the vision isn’t centered on I think it’s generally a mistake to center your vision on being competitive with other organizations. We’re going to be the number one shelter, or we’re going to be the number one provider, or we’re going to be, I mean, so much of especially this work centered around ending human trafficking is about partnership. It’s about collaboration. There’s no one organization that’s going to show up and do all of that. So having that vision centered around how are you working to come alongside to be an ally in this fight to help revolutionize what’s going on? I think it’s just a wonderful, wonderful place to start. And there’s two resources that I’d recommend for anyone who wants to get into this further. Michael Hyatt has a wonderful book on vision. I’ve interviewed him on Coaching for Leaders. I’ll send the link along to you, Sandie, first include for folks who would like to who have never put together a vision for an organization. I think his framework is a wonderful, wonderful framework to follow that really looks beginning to end of where to begin with a vision. And then I also really love David Burkus’ work on how great teams find purpose in thinking about what is it that we can do that finds purpose in a way that’s a lot more meaningful of we want to be number one or we’re going to be the most successful nonprofit or whatever and really look at it from a standpoint of instead of someone to fight, how do we find a cause that’s worth fighting for? And that mindset shift that he makes in his work, I think is really, really helpful. And I’ll get you a link for that as well.

Sandie [00:26:43] And that’s for teams. The David Burkus.

Dave [00:26:47] Yeah, yeah, indeed. Yeah. He’s done some great work on that of really thinking about how do you help a team to find purpose.

Sandie [00:26:54] Well, and my experience in this kind of leadership is building a strong team to go with is a key part of sustainability, because this is a hard battle and nobody can stay on the road all the time. Everybody has to plan some down time and take care of themselves as well. And we’ve heard a lot about self-care. So my nagging thought, you and I have been working together for a long time, and as we’ve walked through some of these discussion points, we keep coming back to the visionary leader, and that is the norm. All of the nonprofit leaders that I know, I understand their passion. I was attracted to the energy that they have when they talk about what they care about. And so that’s pretty standard. But, that also holds some risks because that nonprofit can become very personality driven. And in my own work, I’ve been looking for ways to mitigate that, to be able to share the vision and the purpose and the leadership with other people. Are there some tips for how to reduce the personality driven focus of a nonprofit?

Dave [00:28:32] Indeed. My engineering friends have a great term for this. They call this a single point failure system. And, you know, whenever engineers are building something like building an airplane, for example, there’s always 3 to 4 redundant systems on an airplane that if one system failed or was damaged or something happened, that the other there’s a backup system or tertiary system that can step in and still do the work to land the airplane, right. And I think that’s really important in organizations, too, that if everything in the organization revolves around the founder, the executive director of being physically present and they’re each and every day and all of the work is going through that person, all of the decisions, all of the resources, all of the everything that happens in the organization, that’s fine as long as that person’s there. But what if they decide that that role isn’t right for them anymore, or they get ill or whatever else happens where they’re not able to serve in that capacity anymore? All of a sudden the organization ceases to function because it’s dependent on that person. And we’re I think it’s really helpful to think about is to really start from a framework of what are the different roles that this organization needs. And I would invite anyone who is leading a nonprofit, if they haven’t done this already, even if you’re a one or two person organization, is to sit down and to think about what are the different roles that we need in this organization for it to do the work that it does to serve people well. And one of those roles is executive director, and one of those roles is development, and one of those roles is administration and detailing those out. And you might initially, if you’re a one person or two person organization, you might have one person’s name next to all of those roles. And that’s okay. Almost every organization starts off that way. But as you grow, you’re not growing on personality, you’re growing around the different roles and you start thinking about, okay, who, now that this is grown and I can’t do everything anymore, who else do we need to bring in to do these roles and expand these boxes as they become bigger? As they do in most organizations of any size as they have more success and they continue to grow. So I think it’s really helpful to start from a framework of thinking about roles, job descriptions, what does the organization do and documenting that? Because if you document that, then you use that as a framework and it’s much more likely that you’ll then make decisions going forward of how do we build an organization that’s sustainable, that if someone exits the organization for whatever reason, even if that person happens to be the founder and the executive director, how do we make sure that that’s a sustainable transition? And how do we think about succession planning? And when you have roles and you have that all documented of who’s doing what and what are our plans? If someone exits the organization, especially if that’s the top person, that goes a lot smoother, as does having a great board, right? Sandie, you know this with our board.

Sandie [00:31:43] Yeah, I got a great board.

Dave [00:31:43] Yeah. And having a great board is, I mean a board should be overseeing the work of the organization. They should be providing feedback to the executive director. There should be collaboration. There should be good, healthy conflict that’s happening and discussion about what the future looks like. And so this is to me, a good organization is a lot about partnership. That everyone is working together in partnership through these different roles to help the organization achieve its vision. It’s not about one person having success or being visible on everything, unless that’s the vision of the organization, and that drives that vision. But even then, I think it’s really important to be clear about what are the roles and how to do that. And I’m happy to pass along some resources on delegation and creating roles from our library if folks would like to get into that. Another framework that I have found so helpful over the years and I’ve recommended to so many organizations, especially in the start up phase, is a book by the folks that strategize. They’re called Business Model Generation, and I know that title may not land well with everyone in our audience, because you may think, well, you know, I’m not trying to put together a business, I’m trying to start a nonprofit. But to my earlier point, a nonprofit is a business. It’s just a business that’s not taking a profit. But all of the core elements of business are still there. Marketing, human resources, revenue expenses, financial management. And Business Model Generation is a canvas essentially of how do I start thinking about that? It’s a very visual process and how do I start thinking about all those pieces of where is revenue and fundraising and development going to come from? What are our expenses going to be? What’s the work we’re trying to do? What are the products or services that we offer that support people? And I think getting that down on paper early on, even if it’s not perfect, which of course it won’t be, but is really useful to start framing what the future is going to look like and how do we help support this organization in a very sustainable way?

Sandie [00:33:42] Wow. There are going to be a lot of resource links in this episode, Dave. Thank you so much. I think we could continue this conversation for a lot longer, but our time is up and I’m going to hold you over for a Patreon subscriber question. And I think that question is going to be about how to deal with conflict in nonprofit leadership where you are dealing with mostly volunteers. So if you want to be a Patreon subscriber, please go to our webpage. Dave, you usually do this. I don’t, but go to endinghumantrafficking.org and click on the Patreon link and become a supporter because that’s how we continue to offer this resource to our anti-human trafficking community. And Dave, this has been an encouraging conversation for me as well as challenging. I’ve written down a few notes, especially the always and right now, and there are some things I need to let go of and focus on the right now in order to be more sustainable. And I’m going to look at some of these resources that you’ve offered to us as well. So if you want to hear more from Dave, stick around.

Dave [00:35:15] Sounds great. Well, thank you, Sandie. I really, you know, we’re all learning as we go on this and so many other things in life and in working in organizations. So thank you for all you’ve done to help support me and expand my learning especially in the nonprofit world and the work we’re doing here on the podcast. And to echo Sandie’s point, please go over to endinghumantrafficking.org. If you’re looking for the resources, the notes, all the episode links that I mentioned on Coaching for Leaders we’ll provide all those for folks so it’s easy to get access to. And then we’ll be we’ll be off and running with you and we’ll be back, of course, in two weeks for our next conversation. And, Sandie, always a pleasure.

Sandie [00:35:55] Thank you, Dave, especially for being our guest.

Dave [00:35:59] Of course. Thanks, everyone. See you in two weeks.


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